The "mousegun" mentality: NAA Message Board » Archives » The "mousegun" mentality: Canis Message Board Member Username: Canis Post Number: 5 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 02:18 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I found one of my favorite ever posts I made on the old TFL forum and thought I would repost it here. Due to the length of the post, I will present it in separate parts. I think these posts sum up why I think NAA products fill a valuable niche amongst those of us that are self sufficient and armed. While I have strayed from this philosophy on occassion, I always seem to come back to it. I think I am back to it for good now. I know some of you have found larger firearms (Kahr, etc.) that you carry all the time, I still belive these posts sum up at least my attitude towards concealed carry: Canis Message Board Member Username: Canis Post Number: 6 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 02:21 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- These posts were made in defense of a poster that said bascially that mouseguns were useless and that not carrying a fullsized gun was just plain lazy (paraphrasing is sentiments of course!): "This is the very reason I bought and carry a NAA Guardian .32. You can be miserable carrying a ful sized heavy gun all day under work attire that you won't be able to access very fast at all AND you WILL be self conscious about printing to your co-workers. You can keep your gun in your briefcase which does you no good at all unless you happen to have your brefcase open and right in your lap when a problem should arise. OR - you can carry a small handgun, small caliber, but effective enough, gun that you can carry in your front pocket with no trouble at all which you can have you hand on and ready to draw and fire immediately if the need should arise - ALWAYS. If your gun choices limit your abillity to carry ALWAYS - then you need to compromise and find a smaller gun. A mag full of .32s at the range you would be justified in shooting someone at anyway will be more than adequate. This is based on MY OWN experience. Those of you that want to carry a full arsenal at all times because you are worried your accounting office job might get over run by insane 400+ lb bikers on acid accompanied by moslem terrorists and escaped prison inmates - go ahead and knock yourselves out." I'd say that in the real everyday world that we exist in, for the average person that doens not livein a war/gang warfare zone, a mousegun is going to serve just fine. If you think your super modified ninja .45 is going to save you from having to get your hands dirty in a self defense situation, you're delusional. There is every possible chance that you will be wrestling on the floor with someone that has fractions-of-an-inch larger holes in him than my mousegun put in him. I can and do carry my little Guardian .32 EVERYWHERE - ALL THE TIME." Canis Message Board Member Username: Canis Post Number: 7 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 02:22 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- And another response: "A while back, I remember reading a post by someone (Not sure if it was here, the firing line, or glocktalk) about how they would employ a mousegun if necessary. The poster basically stated that they considered a mousegun as a tool to be used in close quarters combat that would still require the user to "get his hands dirty" so to speak. He basically meant that people assume that just because they carry a handgun - large or small, they will be able to neutralize whatever threat that presents itself from a nice "sanitary" distance that would keep them from getting physically involved with their opponent. I have had this in the back of my head ever since I read it and thought that it was such an eye opening revelation to a new CHL holder (Me). We all practice at seven yards and greater against targets that are not advancing, that stand still and that don't fight back. We practice trigger control and group size and perfect hold and stance. How often do we practice what the real use of a tiny concealed carry handgun may be used for? I have some combat experience being a former Marine. I have seen first hand ho hard it is to put a person down for the count. I know how I react in such a situation and know that I have the ability and desire to kill the other guy more than he wants to kill me. That said, I have recently resolved myself to carrying a Guardian .32 all the time and practice with it as more of a hand to hand CQB tool. I do this by practicing drawing from concealment and firing at targets no farther away than 7 yards. I never end up using any sights, it always is point shooting since it seems to be quicker and is actually easy to get shots where you want them, I practice (with empty gun) using it as a grappling type weapon where shots are placed at contact distance to groin, head,under the chin, chest, etc when wrestling with a training buddy. When the gun is "emptied" it still makes a great "brass knuckles type weapon to beat the hell out of your opponent with. It would be the natural prgression of an attack if you were unable to stop the attacker with your first shots and he managed to close with you. Of course, if it got down to being attacked before i could get to my firearm, I would just go for it han to han or try to get to my Endura clipped to my pocket and gu the bastard liek a fish. I bring this up since it sure has given me a better mindset and more realistic way to view a potential life or death situation. I of course would want to shoot ad run like hel to avoid any more conflict. I think that some people would be scared to death after they've shot a guy and he still manages to close with them because they don't consider the possibility. Anyways, just my comments on why I am confortable carrying my little Guardian. I can have it with me ALWAYS. I can hit with it ALWAYS and it is reliable. So were/are my Glocks, .357 revolvers and 1911, BUT I found myself leaving them home on ocassion because of concealability/convenience issues. " Canis Message Board Member Username: Canis Post Number: 8 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 02:23 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- And lastly: "I would like to add just one more thought... In my case at least, I have noticed that it gets awfully unhealthy socially and mindset-wise to always be dwelling on the "tactical" situation. When I carried a larger gun, I found myself spending WAY too much time always thinking what if and how and blah blah blah... You start to develop an unrealistic idea of what life is all about. I don't want to live my life in the world sequestered in my fortified bunker of a home, surrounded by every weapon I can own that might be needed or some fantastic end of the world scenario. I guess in short I feel this way - If I need a gun to defend myself, I will have one. It may not be the biggest or the "best, BUT I will have one. I have to live IN this world - not seperate from it as if I am terrified of interaction with people that I do not personally know. I am not in immediate danger every moment of my life. I do not have to spend every waking moment dwelling on what if. Like millions of self reliant men and women before us, we are merely meant to be able to react if necessary, not spend our lives in a total state of "cocked and locked". I intend to laugh, play and enjoy my life - I just happen to be ready to do something about it if someone tries to take it away from me. I don't want to spend my every waking moment worrying about printing, adjusting holsters, worrying about every different looking person that happens to cross my path... Heaven help my enemy if he presents himself as such though... until then - I'm the guy laughing at the other table with the great looking kids and wife!" I have posted in the past about not liking mouseguns too. But, I've come to the realization that DO serve a very important role in self defense. I carry larger when I want to, but I ALWAYS have 15 rounds of .32acp on tap no matter what." CANIS Canis Message Board Member Username: Canis Post Number: 9 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 02:26 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Re-reading these, I see that perhaps a proof-reading for typos would have been in order! Thanks for reading!! canis Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 704 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 03:00 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Excellent. Mouse guns are tools. Sometimes it is the right tool for the job. Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 705 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 03:08 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Canis: About 18 hours ago, I became the moderator of Ron Graham's pocket gun forum at his new website. If you could, I would appreciate if you could post your old Firing Line post there. There is no limit as to post size so you can do it in one fell swoop. It also has a built in spell checker so you can clean up the typo's easy. Canis Message Board Member Username: Canis Post Number: 10 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 06:09 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- George, I'll register and post it up tonight! Chris Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 706 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 08:02 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Canis: Thank you very much. Pocket guns are misunderstood. The reason is that few really understand their place as a practical tool. I have never read a more eloquent explaination of their practical use in the real world. Shooterjb Message Board Member Username: Shooterjb Post Number: 55 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 02:59 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Canis, I appreciate your insights and the time that you spent in writing your posts. I agree that much of what you said has a lot of appeal for many people and I respect your sincerity. I look at things a little bit differently though based on some of the things that I have seen and the conclusions that I have drawn from my experiences. I love my NAA Guardians, and carry one almost constantly, but with me they are largely relegated to a backup role. Whenever possible I also carry something considerably more formidable. You talk about the difference that a fraction of an inch makes in stopping power, but it is a well documented and considerable difference, and I want that difference on my side. Generally speaking when you use lethal force in self defense, your life or someone else’s life had better be in jeopardy. That generally means that if you are shooting at someone, they will be shooting at you. I never want to find myself in a situation where the outcome depends on who can take the most hits from the other person’s gun and still survive, but that is what we are talking about. There is no second place winner in a gun fight. Granted you, and most people, may not have made the same choices in life that I have, and therefore, don't have the same perspective on these things that I do. I also grant you that probably 90% of the time if you display a gun, any gun, the common scum of the earth, who specialize in picking and praying on soft and weak targets, are going to look for easier pickings. The other 10% of the time if the assailant is high on Meth or other drugs, crazy or particularly motivated, you will be in serious trouble with a .32 or .380. If you live in an area where these kinds of things don’t or can’t happen, I envy you. I never made it to that pay grade. Based on what I have seen can happen, I will tell you how I spent my day today. When I got home from work this morning at 0630 hours, I changed out of my uniform and went out to shoot with my friend that I carpool with. I fired 100 rounds through my H&K P7 M8 and 150 rounds of mixed Winchester white box ball ammo and various make hollow points though my Kahr PM9. Depending on the make, the hollow points occasionally jam on the feed ramp of the PM9 and I want to get a good idea of what jams in it and what doesn’t before I send it back to Kahr to be repaired. I got home by 0830 hours and got dressed for church at 0900 hours, which included dropping my Guardian .380 in my pocket in a Ron Graham Night Owl holster. After church at approximately 1000 hours I went home, got changed again, dropped a Para-Ordnance P.6.45.LDA in my pocket, along with an extra magazine, and took my youngest daughter and wife out to an excellent breakfast buffet about a half an hour away. When we got home I got on the computer for a little while and then I went to bed with my wife who has to work the midnight shift tonight. I got up at 2100 and went out to Turkey Hill Mini Market to pick some things up, but when I got dressed I dropped the Para-Ordnance P.6.45.LDA in my front pocket again and an eight round Megar spare magazine, in a Ron Graham pocket carrier for it, in my left back pocket. You say that some people feel uncomfortable carrying a heavier gun, but based on my experience; I am much more uncomfortable carrying only a light gun. Each to his own, and good luck with your choice but I felt that I should present an alternate point of view that works for me. By the way, I am not some kind of nut who fantasizes about battling terrorists, although I have seen a lot of terrorist alerts come across my desk lately. Canis Message Board Member Username: Canis Post Number: 11 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 09:14 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Shooter, You make good points. I would say though, that I hope you do not think that just because you have a larger caliber handgun, you are going to get to excuse yourself from having to get your hands dirty. While I would never argue that a larger gun would be better, I would say that it is also a pain in the as to carry one. I carried a 1911 full size, a Glock 22, a Glock 30, a Glock 19, a Glock 26, a Smith snub, etc. etc. etc. - ALL of them interfered with my life to the point where I found it unacceptable. I bought high-dollar holsters for all of them, bought a good belt yada yada yada. I just found myself spending too much time "thinking" about my gun instead of it just being part of my "stuff" that I carry. I don't think about my pocket knife all day and I actually use that every day. I don't think about my mini light or microtool either but I use them regularly. In the extrememly remote chance that I need a handgun, I will have one - ALWAYS. I have small kids and like to be able to roll around at the playground or wherever the mood strikes with them. I never want to limit a single thing because of the thought of "I can't - I have my gun on". Life is too short and the chances of anything happening are too remote. I like to live by what is instead of "what if". I think half of what people plan for is pure pipe dreams anyway. "Tactical" pistol courses and gun articles are the problem. You can't very well take a class and only practice the "3 yards, 3 shots, 3 seconds" averages for gunfights. They have to make it interesting so they come up with all kinds of fantastic scenarios: tacical reloads, running to cover, firing from prone under cars at multiple assailants. Geez - what movies are people watching? People buy their gear for such scenarios so they can do well in class. They then try to plan for the worst possible situation and anything less than being totally ready for it with the ninja deathray 2003 is unacceptable. Regards, canis 22luvr Message Board Member Username: 22luvr Post Number: 48 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 09:53 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Well-put, Canis. I'm 57 years old and have never been close to a life-threatening encounter with someone who is trying to: 1)assault/kill me, 2) rob me, or 3)threaten my family. Depending upon my perceived level of threat, I either carry my Smith 340SC in the pocket when going downtown (Atlanta) or my NAA .22 mag mini-revolver when around town. It is very likely that I will go an entire lifetime without ever being assaulted/robbed/threatened. I am, by nature, a naturally wary/aware individual who is somewhat suspicious upon first encountering a stranger for the first time. Probably my main worry is simply keeping my small collection of firearms safe and secure from my growing number of grandchildren. I've yet to encounter the 250 lb ogre, drug-crazed lunatic, or car-jacker (whose going to want a 6 year old Saturn??) so I am thoroughly satisfied with my level of security. Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 657 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 01:38 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Like canis, I got to do this is two parts. Sandy, don't be so damn cheap, if Ron Graham can afford to give us enough space to write what we need to write at his new web site, why can't NAA? CJ Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 658 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 01:45 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- PART 1 shooterjb - I'm proud to know you and amen to what you wrote here. Those of you who choose to not understand what shooterjb has written are, sadly, turning your back on someone with real life experience who is trying to help you. Other folks also have real life experience. Not all experience is the same. We draw different conclusions. Here, to me, is the difference, what shooterjb writes can't hurt you. All you got to do is think about it. Maybe even discuss it. What canis, who I really like and respect, writes, and what George writes, may very well work for you, but, on the flip side, what they write might also get you killed. Problem is, some folks, and I'm not talking about canis now, read much but have done little when it comes to fighting and self defense. If you: 1) Have not been shot at 2) Have never returned fire 3) Have never been shot 4) Have never shot anyone or, even, through your own personal efforts survived an attack and seriously hurt your attacker Then just who the hell are you to be giving self defense advice to anyone? Don't get me wrong, you don't have to have had all four of those things happen to you to give advice, but, think about it, if you have not been in action what do you really have to say: Someone once threatened me and here is what I did, well, big deal. Who hasn't been threatened? There is more to it than that. Personally, I've never shot anyone, but I have survived many attacks and I have put attackers, mine and others, in the hospital. I've also been shot at, returned fire and been shot. Nuff said. If you don't like me or trust me, talk to a cop or an infantryman who has been in a fire fight. A real one. Listen. You might learn something. Few who have been there carry a mouse gun for anything but: 1) Back up. 2) Deep cover back up. I like mouse guns. I've owned and shot more than most of you who are reading this post. They have their place, as George has written. Most of us, including me, have used a mouse gun as a primary carry substitute. That's a risk management decision. Few of us, who have been in hot zones, carry a mouse gun as our primary gun. Why? We have been to see the elephant. We know we can do better. And, like you, that's our choice. I also like stoppers. Handguns capable of one shot stops with a torso hit 90 percent of the time or more. And, canis, let me tell you that this has nothing to do with clean hands versus dirty hands. My fists have been as bloody as anybody's. If you want to talk clean kills, talk to the fly boys. What we are talking about here is up close and personal. Why? Simple. Most shooters not only can't hit anything with a handgun at longer range but have no business shooting at someone at longer range. There are exceptions, but not many. Plus, roughly half of reported shooting incidents, according to the FBI, take place at 3 feet or less. And, 80 percent take place at 21 feet or less. CJ - KEEP WATCH, PART 2 IS COMING UP NEXT Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 659 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 01:50 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- PART 2 It's all about odds (percentages), options and making informed choices. If you know your options and make informed choices, you will not get any crap from me. Risk management is an individual thing. What I hate is the monkey see monkey do stuff. Why? Cause it's going to get some lazy damn fool killed. What works for one simply does not work for all. We are individuals. With different needs. Different life styles. We dress different. We think different. We approach threat differently. Example: canis and I are big, strong and experienced fighters. We have both been around the block and are in a group that most thinking people do not want to attack. Yet, I have been attacked. My chosen work, primary and secondary, over the years, has put me in harms way, often. canis, he could probably fight grizzly bears with a switch if he wanted to. Frankly, he is one guy that I'd like on my side, even if all he brings to the table is his mouse gun. Now, what if you are not big, strong and an experienced fighter? And, to get real, let's say you are not all that smart, just average, so you are not a great think on your feet during a crisis type of person, you don't practice shooting more than once a month or so and you are not really sure if you can pull the trigger on another human being cause, deep down, you know that you have never physically hurt anybody bad enough to put them in the hospital. Hmmm. Back to the drawing board, for you probably should not be carrying any kind of gun at all. Someone is just going to come along, take it away from you and hurt you with it. Bottom line, when it comes to self defense, all we can do is tell each other what we like, why we like it and, well, that's it, period, end of story. Your life means your choice, period, again, end of story. Know your options. Make informed choices. Is that too much to ask? Time to separate the BS from reality. CJ PS - Me, I like: 1) A primary carry stopper that is capable of one shot stops with a torso hit 90 percent of the time or better and is both easy for me to get to and, thanks to Ron Graham, comfortable to carry. Why? I've been attacked. If I shoot somebody, I want the odds on my side that they are going down right now. Especially if they are within 3 feet of me, as FBI statistics tell me is likely to be the case at least half the time. 2) A back up carry that is easy for me to get to and, again, thanks to Ron Graham, comfortable to carry. Why? If I ever draw and fire my primary carry handgun I don't want to hear a click and then wonder what I'm going to do next. Also, if I should shoot my primary carry handgun empty, drawing and firing a back up carry handgun is often quicker than reloading a primary carry handgun. 3) A deep cover back up carry handgun that is less likely to be found should I somehow be disarmed. There are times when even a little 22 short NAA Mini can save your life if you know how to use it and are willing to use it to do what must be done. PPS - If you don't like what I've written, tough. I'm old. What I think works has taken me a long way through some dangerous places where people actually got hurt. Can you say the say about what you think works? Or, are you relatively young, live the good life and just slumming when it comes to serious self defense discussions? Some of us are trying to help folks. Some of you seem to resent it. Why? Some days it feels like we, who have been around the block, for real, a time or two, are trying to help dumb and dumber and I just don't understand that. When did trying to teach folks to know their options and make informed choices become a bad thing? Canis Message Board Member Username: Canis Post Number: 12 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 03:35 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- CJ - No arguing with that opinion at all. it does all comes down to personal choice. I will also agree that the single best thing that has helped me in regards to how I carry myself is for some S.O.B.s to actually have had the audacity to take some shots at me. You can imagine how you will react bt you never know for sure until it happens. Thankfully I was not one of the guys ducking for cover, I was one of the guys lining up the front sight on my shotgun... Might I say that this forum is the absolute most level-headed one there is. Thanks to everyone that had input, both dissenting and agreeing on this post. canis Coperhead Message Board Member Username: Coperhead Post Number: 18 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 03:52 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Canis, If you are comfortable with pocket gun as a primary carry that's your choice, at least you have some protection. I sometimes carry my G.32 as a primary carry, but most of the time I chose to carry something with real stoping power. When my family is with me I always carry a primary gun. I am willing to get my hands dirty, but I don't want my family getting dirty. The reason I like the pocket gun is because it gives me options. The pocket gun provides me an element of surprise. I can have my hand on my pocket gun without drawing any attention.I think it was Bill Jordan that said,"If you don't have your gun in your hand when the trouble starts, you probably will never get to it." When I carry my primary gun I don't feel like I'm always in a ready position for trouble. Just being generaly aware of your surroundings isn't a full allert, but I do listen to my instincts. If something just doesn't seem right, my focus changes. Then I start thinking about my primary gun, and I'm glad I have it. Richard_s Message Board Member Username: Richard_s Post Number: 25 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 04:13 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- It seems to me that both Shooter and CJ are right on the mark. Although the G380 is my 24/7 gun and I value it immensely, I do not consider it to be a primary weapon. In my case, that role belongs to a 1911-style (M1991A1) Colt .45. (I've been partial to 1911s since my Army days back in the '60s.) This Colt of mine has been "melted" for concealed carry by Clark Custom Guns, and I wear it IWB in either a Law Concealment LCSII or a Workman "tuckable" from Mitch Rosen Extraordinary Gunleather. One of Robert Ruark's maxims was, "Use enough gun." He was writing about hunting, but the advice applies as well to concealed carry. To borrow CJ's term, I also have "seen the elephant." On two occasions, once during a protracted civil war and once during a violent military coup in what Conrad described as "the Heart of Darkness," the elephant almost ended it for me. As a result, I carry as much gun as I can conceal at any given time. The G380 is always with me but, whenever possible, the Colt .45 is along in the primary role. (The truth of the matter is that I would probably carry my Desert Eagle .50 if I could just figure out some way to conceal the beast.) Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 660 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 04:31 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- canis and I get along because we pay attention to each other, are willing to discuss stuff and have no delusions of grandeur. Plus, I respect him. He is man enough to not only change his mind but say so and then tell us his reasons. Needless to say, I like him and the way he conducts himself. Besides, later, when he gives it some more thought, he just may change his mind again. And, if he does, he will tell us about that too. Like I wrote before, if he wants to go grizzly bear hunting with a switch, well, I'd probably be dumb enough to go along. CJ PS - Smart money is on the bear but never count two guys out who have been around the block and are still here to talk about it. PPS - canis is also the guy who inspired Bill and I to first discuss and then me write FIGHTING CAN HURT YOU. Bud Message Board Member Username: Bud Post Number: 10 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 04:51 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- wow... CJ, you and Shooter sure know how to make a person start thinking about things differently. I have feel motivated to start making my PM-9 spend more time with me this summer. Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 661 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 05:05 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Coperhead - Come on over to Ron Grahams web site at www.grahamholsters.com, canis has and so have a bunch of other good folks. Your thinking makes sense to me. So does what Bill Jordan said. More often than not, during my walks at night with my dog, my hand is in my pocket and there is a gun in that hand. Most of my pockets, if I had to, I could shoot through. No one is going to out draw me. Why? Cause I cheat. If that first shot of mine don't do what needs doing, well, odds are, after ducking and then giving some thought to changing their underwear, the last thing an attacker wants is for me to fire a second shot at them. Regardless of caliber. Surprise. It can do wonders when its on your side. Over at Ron's we discuss a lot of guns, handguns as well as rifles. We also discuss knives. And lots of carry options for both handguns and knives. Heck, that's what Ron is all about, carry options. Helping us figure out how to dress around our self defense weapon of choice. And, you know, when we all get right down to it, where the meat meets the bone, our best weapon is our brain. Weapons, mostly, especially guns, less so knives, get used when we don't use our brain as well as we might. Sometimes self defense is as simple as turning around and walking away. If you got some miles on you, like yourself, feel pretty good about your life, well, trust your instincts for they got you this far and this far is pretty good. On the other hand, if you are young, have not been around much, don't like yourself or your life, well, odds are your instincts are not so good and trusting them is a bit on the silly side. You need to do some learning or odds are you are always going to end up holding the short end of the stick. I started life angry. Had lots of fights. Learned a few things. Life got better for me. It can for you too if you are willing to do some thinking and put forth some effort. Anyway, come on over Coperhead, you might enjoy some of our Forums. CJ Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 662 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 05:09 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- RS - Come write more at Ron's. You got the gift. Here is one you may like: The primary purpose of any handgun is to fight your way to a better weapon. CJ Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 663 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 05:14 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Bud - Good on you. Odds are, the more thinking you do, the less you are going to need a gun of any kind, period. canis kind of made fun of it in a paraphrase, but I still like this old saying: Prepare for the worst. Hope for the best. Say, you know why there are old sayings? Mostly, they are true. If they were not true, they would never last long enough to be called old sayings. Food for thought. CJ Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 708 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 05:19 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Richard: Canis and Shooter have quite a bit in common. They assessed their own situation and made an intelligent decision based on their respective needs. The risks faced by Canis daily may be different than those faced by Shooter. Their respective comfort levels are different, but what's important is not their ultimate decision but the process that they employed to reach it. Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 664 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 05:43 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- THE DEFINITION GAME One last thought, just for fun, let's discuss, not argue, discuss, definitions for the following: 1) Primary carry handgun. 2) Back up carry handgun. 3) Deep cover back up carry handgun. - Give us your written definition for each type of carry handgun listed, all three, this can be as easy or as hard as you want to make it. - Give us an example of each type of carry handgun listed, be specific as to things like make, model, caliber, barrel length and, finally, the cartridge and bullet combination you think should be carried in it. - Describe to us how you carry each type of carry handgun listed, the goal here is, I hope, for some of us to learn new carry options for the more I study this particular topic the more I come to realize that our imagination is our only real limiting factor. Creativity allows us to dress around more handguns than most of us would ever think possible. My prediction is: If you put some honest effort into this little exercise, you will be surprised at how hard it is to be both clear and helpful with what you are writing. My hope is: You will come to understand how much thought and effort some of us put into our posts when we are trying to help folks better understand their carry options so they can make informed choices. Trust me on this one, it ain't as easy as you might think. CJ Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 665 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 05:46 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- George - Good on you. And, well written besides. CJ Coperhead Message Board Member Username: Coperhead Post Number: 19 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 05:48 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- CJ, See you at grahamholsters.com. Thanks for the invite. Yes, surprise can do wonders if it's on your side.I'm a young 61 years old and if I don't have surprise on my side it won't be for lack of trying. I do trust my instincts, but I'm always looking to tear a page out of someone else's book, if it works for me. Learning something new is what it's all about... Saffron Message Board Member Username: Saffron Post Number: 77 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 07:16 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- My most threatening place is going from my car on a hospital employee ramp into the building and back out. I have to leave all my guns in the car. In Michigan, you can not carry into a hospital. Our local thugs know this. Our hospital security is a joke. My defense is the pepper/tear gas/ultraviolet dye spray that one of your gentlemen, Bill, recommended. I think it was him. Now my worst place, is a place I can only carry a spray. I don't know how to fight. I have to depend on my spray and my common sense. Plus my 6th sense that I listen to quiet well. I just wish I could actually have ANY gun on those trips in and out of work. Saffron Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 666 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 07:21 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Coperhead - Looking forward to seeing you over at Ron's. CJ Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 667 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 07:41 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Let me tell you folks something. Saffron may be small, somewhere around 5'4" tall and maybe 125 pounds, but here is what she carries as her primary handgun: 1) A 357 magnum Ruger SP 101 with 3 inch barrel. 2) Or, a 40 S&W Kahr MK40 with 3 inch barrel. She has Ron Graham IWB holsters for both and, wearing either one of these two handguns, manages to dress around it. Plus, she practices shooting. Why? Because she likes her guns and enjoys shooting them. Should the day ever come when she needs to use 'em, well, as a surgical nurse, she not only knows how to shoot but where to shoot. This is one little woman I'd hate to make the mistake of attacking. Additionally, she has a loving husband and sons who adore her and all of them are not only well armed but like to practice. Theirs is not a home that any sane person would want to attack. Now, some of you men, especially you, like me, larger men, tell me again why you can't figure out how to dress around your choice of a carry gun? CJ PS - Saffron is also a regular over at Ron's. We have a Forum for women, Talk With Tillie, which is moderated by a woman, Tillie, some of you may remember her posts here at NAA, and she is nice enough to let us men visit them, in their own Forum, for they, women, have much to teach us. PPS - For those of you with kids, we also have a Young Guns Forum for boys and girls as well as young men and young women. Women and kids, how many times to I have to say it: They are the future of the shooting sports and hunting. Without them, we are all just preaching to the choir and may as well be sitting in deck chairs on the Titanic. Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 710 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 08:27 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Saffron: Going to and from your car at work may be where you are most fearful of becoming a victim, but if you want to be surprised, look at the violent crimes committed at shopping centers and mall between 10 am and 3 pm. More crimes of violence are committed on women at shopping centers and malls during the day then at any other time. Richard_s Message Board Member Username: Richard_s Post Number: 26 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 08:46 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- CJ: You wrote: "Here is one you may like: The primary purpose of any handgun is to fight your way to a better weapon." I do like it. And let me say this about that. The weapon which hangs by its sling on my side of the bed is my personal choice for ultimate home defense -- a stainless-steel Winchester 1300 Marine Defender 12-guage pump shotgun loaded with 3" magnum 00 buckshot and equipped with folding stock, laser sight, high-intensity tactical flashlight, and a sidesaddle filled with rifled slugs -- just in case. I purely pity the "bad guy" with a grudge who would . . . . RS Billinpittsburg Message Board Member Username: Billinpittsburg Post Number: 182 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 09:14 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I think we can all agree that if/when we get attacked, we want the biggest, most powerful, most accurate weapon we can have. Problem is, sometimes the weapon we can have isn't going to be the ideal weapon. A couple of weeks ago, I was in court helping various ladies get protection from abuse orders against their abusive boyfriends. Guns, knives, and pepper spray were all out of the question. My "primary" weapon was a small metal flashlight. My "backup" weapon was my fists and feet. A few weeks ago I went to the DC suburbs of MD and VA, and for part of that time into DC itself. Outside of DC, I carried 2 knives and pepper spray. In DC, I had to switch to 2 smaller knives and leave the pepper spray behind. Guns weren't an option anywhere I went. Even though I legally carried a gun in VA when I was a VA resident, I can't do so as a nonresident. How much time do those of you who favor larger weapons spend at work? Does your employer have any policies regarding guns? If not, would they be particularly pleased if the boss mentions that this particular client or customer isn't that formal so you can leave the jacket in your office, but you have to tell him you are leaving it on so the client doesn't see your full-size 1911? Is your boss going to want you walking around all day with an untucked shirt or wearing a fanny pack? How do you best balance the risk of criminal attack with the risk of losing a job? I would define my "primary weapon" as the most potent weapon I happen to be carrying at that particular time, because that's the first thing I'm going to grab if I am threatened or attacked. That primary weapon might be a Glock 26, carried in a horizontal shoulder holster, right hip holster, IWB holster, fanny pack, or pocket holster. It might be a North American Arms Guardian or Kel-Tec P-32 in a pocket holster. On occasion it has been a NAA .22 lr in a pocket holster. It might be an Emerson Mini-Commander or Mini-CQC7A clipped to my pocket. It might be 2-AA Mini-Maglite or Streamlight Batonlight. It might be the pepper spray I gave my fiance to carry - at least until I can persuade her to carry something more serious. I would be much happier if my Glock 26 could come with me 24/7 without exceptions. We simply don't live in a world where that can be done. Coperhead Message Board Member Username: Coperhead Post Number: 20 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 09:24 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Saffron, My sister is a nurse with the same problems. She has her CCW, but hospital rules do not allow her to take her gun inside. I bought her a SUREFIRE combatlight the Z3 model.The light is so bright up close an attacker must turn away, or close their eyes.It's also great to light up the area around your car before you open the door. They are not cheap but well worth the cost. I think I paid about $65.00 for hers. It only about 3 1/2 inches long. If you don't have a combat light please consider a good one. Stay safe. Coperhead Message Board Member Username: Coperhead Post Number: 21 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 09:59 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Saffron, My sister is a nurse with the same problems. She has her CCW, but hospital rules do not allow her to take her gun inside. I bought her the SUREFIRE combatlight the Z3 model.They light is so bright up close at night the attacker must turn away,cover up, or close their eyes.It's also great to light up the area around your car before you open the door. I think I paid about $65.00 for hers. If you don't have a combat light please consider a good one. Stay safe. Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 669 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:57 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- RS - That is some serious self defense! CJ Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 670 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 01:31 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Bill - You know I love you but, truth be told, we don't all live in the same world. For example - My world is tremendously different from your world. I suspect others could say the same. There are a lot of worlds out here and they are all different. Trust me. I've spent time in all 50 states, most of Canada, and 30 different, vastly different, countries in Europe, Africa and South America. Here are some more quick examples that I invite you to think about: 1) Some of us don't have bosses. We are the boss. 2) Some of us can dress as we wish and carry whatever type of handgun we wish to carry, every day of the year, all year 'round, every year. No questions asked. By anyone. And, we do it with a concealed carry permit. 3) Some of don't have traditional jobs because we don't work for someone else in a traditional work place or, like me, are retired. We are much like number 2) above. 4) Some of us don't have your youth and unarmed fighting skill. You are fairly quick. Some of us are not. We might very well need a carry handgun, more than you do, for self defense. 5) Some of us need the best stopping power we can get. When roughly half of reported shooting incidents take place at 3 feet or less, and, again, some of us are not as quick as you are, that does not leave us much margin for error. Personally, at that range, 3 feet, if I miss my attackers CNS (central nervous system), or have to shoot my attacker in the torso, for any number of good reasons, that may be the only shot I get. So, I want that shot to be the best I'm capable of shooting. For me, that means a shot with a cartridge and bullet combination that rank in the 90th percentile of the Marshall one shot stop with a torso hit data. Why? Simple. I want those odds on my side. The more the better. Think of it this way: Why should I shoot an attacker with a NAA handgun caliber when I don't have to? I like this web site. I like Sandy Chisholm, the boss man at NAA. But, and this is a big but, I don't like 'em well enough to depend on the handgun calibers they produce when the best of them only come in at 71 percent in the Marshall data. To be blunt, I can do better. And, that's my choice. If someone wants a 380. They know their options. Make an informed choice. OK by me. Now, give me the same consideration. Personally, I can do better than a 380. And, I live in a world where I don't have to carry a 380. Feels good. CJ Canis Message Board Member Username: Canis Post Number: 13 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 07:18 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- If you, as an individual, have put serious thought and consideration of lifestyle, threat level, comfort, etc. etc. etc. into your own choice for a weapon - it is the RIGHT decision. I find that I enjoy reading dissenting opinions more than agreeable ones since it makes me mentally defend my choices. They help me to re-evaluate my situation. As long as we are prepared to DO SOMETHING to defend self and family, that is what truly matters the most. To be a sheep and live in fear is no way to live! canis Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 674 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 10:55 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- canis - Well, you did it again. Just like at the old NAA web site. You know how to get a good discussion going. Key word: Discussion. I enjoy a good discussion. I hate arguing. Big difference. Fun to get into a topic with honest folks who have no bone to pick or vested interests to defend with silly and obvious propaganda. When good independent thinking prevails, with all concerned knowing their options, so that they can make informed choices, well, we all, somehow, come out ahead and are better off for our participation in the discussion. Honesty gives us windows into other folks lives. We learn that some of us live in vastly different worlds. We have different needs. Different concerns. Sometimes it's as simple as looking at a persons location. Martial status. Whether or not they have kids. A persons age. Disability. There are simply no end of differences between us. Yet we can come together, have a good discussion, learn something, I hope, and go away the better for it. So, good for us, and thanks to canis for giving us this topic. His thinking and conduct set the tone. And that says a lot of good stuff about him. CJ Darvell Message Board Member Username: Darvell Post Number: 79 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:47 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Richard_S wrote: >The weapon which hangs by its sling on my side >of the bed is my personal choice for ultimate >home defense -- a stainless-steel Winchester >1300 Marine Defender 12-guage pump shotgun >loaded with 3" magnum 00 buckshot and equipped >with folding stock, laser sight, high-intensity >tactical flashlight, and a sidesaddle filled >with rifled slugs -- just in case. (-: Damn, Richard, remind me to never knock on your door at night! :-) Rifled slugs and double-ought shot. Man, you mean business! I have some rifled slugs for my 20 gauge shotgun and they are amazing. I was out with a friend one day and decided to see how far I could shoot the slugs. I picked out a spot on the hill in front of us at about 400 yards in the distance and fired. I could see the dust from the slug impact. I was thorougly amazed to shoot a shotgun that far. The drop was considerable, but the coolness factor was pretty high. I could see a 12-gauge slug going through both sides of a car and out the other side, taking nickel-sized pieces of steel with it. ;) I sure hope that you don't live in an apartment! Darvell Toml Message Board Member Username: Toml Post Number: 263 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 01:50 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Yes a good discussion is what it is all about, and cj is right, there is no set formula for self defense, everyone is different and we all live in different situations. I really want folks to do alot of research before they plunk their money down on a gun, especially novice shooters. We already saw one woman here at the naa forum make the wrong purchase, she bought a guardian and last I heard she was still talking about giving it to her husband. She had trouble shooting it well, had trouble racking the slide, and basically was unhappy with the whole experience. While reading that post, I called my wife in to the room and asked her to rack the slide on my G32, she could not do it, much to my surprise. She handles a kahr K9 quite well, but found the little guardian difficult. Saffron and Tillie do it, but I would consider them to be way above average female shooters. What I am getting at here is, even though this is naa forum, I am pretty sure Sandy would agree with me that if someone buys a naa mousegun, and it is the wrong gun for them, they end up unhappy, that is bad for business. My wife thinks they are "cute" little guns, but they are not right for her at this stage of her life......tom ps...and for the record, my always gun is a kahr mk9, when I go into higher threat level situations, I up the ante with a G32 for backup, higher threat level situations require more, like a ruger sp101 and the mk9, or a kimber combat carry backed up by any of the above, that is just my way, what I am comfortable with....tl Toml Message Board Member Username: Toml Post Number: 264 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 02:28 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- regarding coperheads post about surefire lights, after a friend who works in my local shop blinded me with about a one second flash from his surefire(he warned me, but I wanted to see for myself)I bought a G2 Nitrolon, which is the same light as the others but with a polymer body instead of the machined aluminum. They go for about 30.00 or so. They will absorb shock a little more than the alloy if dropped, but lack the cool factor of machined alluminum, and probably aren't as good for use as a little club. I did not totally appreciate these lights until darkness set in, I went into my dark backyard and this little light just lit up the whole yard, plus had a good distance factor, all in all it out did my 3D maglight(except as a club of course). And man will they ever blind an attacker, absolutely amazing little lights!....tom Saffron Message Board Member Username: Saffron Post Number: 78 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 06:25 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I will look into the surefire light. We have had women already attacked on our parking ramp. Not me if I can help it. I keep trying to tell the ladies to walk down the center of the ramp, not close to the cars. Walk fast, have you car keys in your hand BEFORE you leave the hospital, bend down and check under your car in more than one spot so you could see feet at different spots. Check the back seat before you get in the car, shut the door quickly and lock it! Some of them look at me like I'm nuts. I figure, if I do this on a routine basis, it just might help me. Saffron Richard_s Message Board Member Username: Richard_s Post Number: 27 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 07:14 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Darvell: You would always be welcome to knock on our door. Just call ahead if you come after midnight. With my wife's current job and my former one . . . well, you understand. RS Richard_s Message Board Member Username: Richard_s Post Number: 28 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 07:27 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- George: Your posting # 708, supra (as we lawyers would say), was well said. Everyone has to assess his or her own situation and decide accordingly. You know, this thread started by Canis has been one of the most interesting ones in a long time. This Message Board never ceases to interest me. Keep the faith. RS Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 49 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 07:11 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Canis, Good post. Saffron, I have to carry to inner city hospitals sometimes in the middle of the night. If you enter after hours, the only door through which to gain entry is the E.R. and you must go through a metal detector. I tell them I am legally armed and they allow me to unload and "Check" my gun in the security office and give me a receipt for it. When I start to leave the hospital, I just pick it up on my way out. They don't advertise that they do this, but will do it if you ask. I don't know if they extend the same courtesy to employees, but you could suggest the idea and see what happens. You might want to mention that they may reduce their liability exposure from legally armed employees who are forced to walk disarmed in a parking lot with insufficient security Just a thought! For all those who carry compact guns in "stopper" calibers. Don't trust Marshall's numbers unless they are specific to barrel length. "Primary" calibers like 38 special, 357, 9mm, 40S&W, and 45 loose effectiveness drastically in shorter barrels. Many who advocate "Primary" gun use here also mention that they carry compact guns in major calibers as "Primaries". Many would be suprised to know that their compact "Primary" is significantly reduced in power and may even be in the same stopping range as a 32 "mousegun" or 380. Bullets that reliably expand out of a 5" 45acp DO NOT reliably expand in my 3.5" 45acp. When you get to short pistol barrels, 2 inches less barrel length may drop your one shot stop numbers by as much as 20% or more WITH THE EXACT SAME LOAD. Always good to consider ALL the facts! Roll Tide Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 681 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 10:11 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Here we go again - If we are not both thoughtful and careful. Some of us own chronographs and have done the math necessary to determine fpe in our own guns. Further, we have shared that data in numerous posts. No secrets. Why would anyone suggest otherwise? Some folks just seem to enjoy nit picking and innuendo. And, quite frankly, that is what I'm coming to not like about this web site. Too many new folks bringing stuff from other web sites where they seem to enjoy conflict just for the sake of conflict. Productive or not. I've learned that it is not wise to respond to these sorts of people. Nothing good comes of it for it's not a discussion at all so much as a damn contest. Not what I'm about here for I find that sort of stuff counterproductive and try not to get sucked in to it. What do some of you other folks think? As a point of fact: The Marshall data I have is not based on barrel length. It is reported by "caliber and load," plus "shots and stops." If there is new Marshall data based on barrel length, I'd appreciate it if someone would post it for I would like to not only see it but learn from it but I'll be damned if I'm going to play silly games to coax it out of anybody. If it exists it will get posted and we will all have a chance to take a look at it and learn from it. If it don't show up, well, that might also tell us something. Either way we learn more. CJ Toml Message Board Member Username: Toml Post Number: 266 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 01:11 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- It seems I have been doing nothing but trying to defend my position lately, and to tell you the truth it has been a LONG day, and I am exhausted, that being said, I---can't---stay out---- of these---- threads arggggg...... If there is data re: barrel length and OSS percentages lets see it, as cj said. Last weekend I chronographed my glock 17, 4.5in barrel, and my glock 26, 3.5in barrel, the difference was very minimal, in fact with one load the "baby" glock had better fps and fpe numbers, one of those things that is hard to explain. We tested three times to be sure, and came up with the same numbers all three times. cj has posted similar results in the past with some of his guns. Two of my friends who are LEO carry glocks on duty, full size g22 models. These are 4.5in barrels just like my 17, and I would assume similar size guns to these are represented in the marshal data, if the 3.5 in glocks have such a huge falloff in stopping power, what do you base it on? The chrono numbers don't lie, with comparable fpe it is hitting the body with the same force, or am I missing something? Now the kahr mk series guns. Mine compares favorably with the baby glock numbers, so here we go again, what are you basing your opinion on? As to short barrel 45 guns, mine is a 4in kimber combat carry, that is as small as I have gone and until kahr comes out with their little 45, we may not see any chrono comparisons from cj or myself. All I know is, if it comes out of the barrel at the same speed and with the same energy it is gonna expand the same. Where did you get your findings on 45 expansion, did you gel test? I am asking cause you don't say, you haven't given us a whole lot except opinions at this point. So I am really just trying to figure how you can get your little 32 to put out numbers to compare to our 9mm and 40 cal handguns, IMO it just can't happen.....tom Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 722 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 05:06 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Tom: That the numbers out of a baby Gkock may have been better than out of a longer barrel Glock is not that unusual. The power may have been faster burning, such as a double base powder. If a barrel is long enough to allow for complete combustion, exceeding that length may result in retarted speed. Since pistol barrel lengths are short to begin with, there should not be a dramatic diference in numbers. As to Marshall/Sadow there is no such thing as perfect data. The major complaint against them is that their data is too subjective and that it cannot be peer reviewed. Shooterjb Message Board Member Username: Shooterjb Post Number: 59 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 06:22 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Rolltide, Personally, I have always been aware of the effect of barrel length on bullet velocity. That is one of the many reasons why some time ago I finally broke down and bought a chronograph. As CJ has said more than once while quoting Jack O'Connor, "It takes all of the BS out of it". Cjishere2 Message Board Member Username: Cjishere2 Post Number: 682 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 09:02 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- For those of you who want to learn more about cartridge and bullet combinations, go to the internet: 1) Read what Marshall has to say. 2) Read what Fackler and the other Marshall critics have to say. Once you have read both sides, you will be in a better position to know your options and make informed decisions. And, that is all that some of us are asking you to do: Know your options and make informed decisions, period. I've read both Marshall and Fackler. In my view, based on written exchanges I've had with Marshall, he is a jerk and I don't like him. Nonetheless, he provides more useful data than anyone else that I know of so I try to use it to my advantage. Why? Because the data he compiles comes from shooting incident reports taken by law enforcement and autopsy results from medical facilities. Can't get any more real life than compiling data, written by law enforcement and medical personnel, on what happens when a bullet hits a person. Based on reading Fackler, I respect him and wish that he and Marshall would work together. What a team that could be and what a benefit to us, the shooting public, for the data would be greatly improved. Not so much in its gathering, for Marshall is good at that, as a former law enforcement officer he has useful contacts, but in its interpretation, which Fackler, as a physician and a man of science, is really good at doing. I have probably posted more fps and fpe and OSS data at this web site than anyone. Go back, look at my posts. They will tell you that I am testing MY GUNS and reporting MY DATA. They will also tell you that the OSS ratings come from MARSHALL'S DATA. Any questions so far? OK. Now come the choices: 1) You want folks like me to keep posting data for you or do you want the ankle biters to piss us off to a point where we no longer share our data or our life experiences? 2) You want to depend on the innuendo types who come and go and appear to enjoy conflict but, when all is said and done, have given you more opinions than they have useful data? 3) How about the read much but do little folks, you want to depend on them for data? I sometimes wonder if the say it a lot crowd, who would have you believe their personal opinions, based mostly on repetition, have any supporting data? If they do, they sure don't appear to share much of it. Remember: Just 'cause someone says it a lot, don't make it true. Those of us who say: Know your options and then make informed decisions seem to be the ones who are providing most of the data. We got no ax to grind. We are not trying to talk you, the reader, into or out of anything. Why? We trust you to make your own risk management decisions. I can discuss stopper calibers and have done so in print. I can discuss mouse gun calibers and have done so in print. Both have their place. Again, any questions? OK. You, the reader, more than those of us who do most of the writing here, have got to learn to recognize the difference between information and propaganda. Some of us tell you our test results and share our life experiences. We build data banks, by posting our results, on lots of calibers, guns, cartridges and bullets. Others will tell you, usually based on no test results or hard data whatsoever, not only which caliber to buy and carry but how to carry it and which gun maker to buy from. You tell me, who is giving you information and who is giving you propaganda. Some writers come in here yapping at you like little ankle biter dogs, repeating the same stuff over and over as if repetition alone is good enough to convince you that the way they do it is the best way for you to do it too. You want to jump on the band wagon, play follow the leader to a world where choices are based on monkey see monkey do, well, go ahead. As I always say: Your life, your choice. Some us want to discuss interesting issues and data with thinking folks so as to learn more about guns, calibers, cartridges, bullets and what happens when a bullet hits a human being. Others, to put it simply, want you to follow their lead. Why? Who knows. Ego? Who cares. F 'em. Do your own thinking, period and end of story. I'm through writing in this thread now. I've said all I got to say. My best advice, to those of you still reading this post, don't let the a-holes suck you into their world. If you can't tell the difference between those trying to help you and those trying to influence you, then stay here, mix it up, enjoy yourself. I'm gone. New threads await. CJ Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 50 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 01:04 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Tom & Shooter, You have done exactly what I suggested. You did not trust the Marshall numbers alone. You bought chronographs, checked velocities between the compacts and full size guns, and came to the conclusion that there is no significant difference. I totally agree that if the bullet is the same and the velocity is the same, the we can reasonably expect the one shot stop performance to be the same. As George so aptly stated, the real question is whether the combustion rate of the powder in a particular load allows for a complete burn in the barrel lengths in question. While it is true some loads may not change much from 2" to 4" barrels, my point is some will change drastically and exactly what you have done with your own chronographs needs to be done before you trust Marshall's data. Don't get me wrong, I really am positive about Marshall's data and any other real world shooting data that is collected. Dale Towert's data used to be in free then it was moved to Marshall's pay for use area. I don't know if it is still there, but it has been posted on free sites elsewhere. I believe the data posted on the following site is Dale Towert's data. http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm On one caliber, the 38 special, the data is separated by barrel length. You may find it interesting. The best 38 special load in a 2" barrel is a 67% OSS (Winchester +P 158gr LHP) while the best load in the 4" 38 special is 83% OSS (Corbon +P+ 115gr JHP). The actual difference is 16% (I thought the best 4" OSS number was 89%, that is why my previous post stated a 20% plus differential - but upon verification it is only 16%. Also note that the biggest head to head differential on the same load is 11%) Although I gave figures in round numbers, I think anyone should agree that 16% OSS reduction in the same caliber is significant, or even 11%. It should also be noted that the best 38 special numbers IN A 2" BARREL IS NEARLY IDENTICAL TO THE 32acp BEST OSS AT 66% (Winchester Silvertip) as I have posted elsewhwere on this board. My main point before, regardless of what a certain person chooses to read into it, is that you cannot trust Marshall's data in compact guns since it was data most likely collected when full size guns were probably dominant in most of the cases recorded. It may be the same, it may not, but you cannot trust it until you verify it by other means, as some here have done and thus proved they did not trust the data until they verified it for themselves in their compact weapons. BUT JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE VERIFIED THAT ONE LOAD WAS ROUGHLY EQUIVALENT BETWEEEN ONE COMPACT GUN AND ONE FULL SIZE GUN, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IS ALWAYS THE CASE IN DIFFERNT GUNS AND CALIBERS AS THE TOWERT NUMBERS INDICATE. I appreciate all who post their chronograph numbers here since I do not have one myself. The following are some additional pages that may be of interest to those who are interested in general and specific self defense data and OSS numbers other than just stuff from message boards like this one and others. Personal protection in the US today. http://www.internetarmory.com/personal_protection.htm Physiological and Psychological factors relating to wounds and self defense. http://www.internetarmory.com/self_defense.htm General introduction to ammunition and self defense. http://www.internetarmory.com/ammunition.htm One shot stop figure for handgun ammo. http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm One shot stop figures for rifle ammo. http://www.internetarmory.com/rifle_ammo.htm One shot stop numbers for shotgun loads. http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm This way you can read the data yourself. You don't have to pay for it over at Marshall's site or ask some of our friends here to look it up and post it for you. Like I said before, Always best to consider ALL the facts. We seem to all be in agreement about that. Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 51 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 08:33 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- The following is quoted from the 2002 Guns & Ammo article "Top 10 Self-Defense Loads - Our law enforcement expert makes his choice among today's offerings." By CPL. ED SANOW "... This top 10 list is comprised of those loads with the most one-shot stops in actual police shootings. The data for one-shot stops comes from retired Detroit Police Homicide Sergeant Evan Marshall. ... ... With an incredible 96 percent one-shot stops, number three on my list of top 10 self-defense loads is the Federal .45 ACP 230-grain Hydra-Shock. ... These results come with a few words of caution. One-shot stops in the mid-90 percent range are based on the use of 5-inch barreled guns like the S&W Model 4506 and the Colt Government Model. As the barrel length drops from 5 inches to 4 1/4 inches, the effectiveness of these loads drops off sharply to around 88 percent. That's not bad, but it is not top 10 either. Short-barrel auto pistols should be loaded with lighter and faster hollowpoints to make up for the loss of velocity from the short barrel length." END OF QUOTE Please note that the LOSS OF JUST 3/4" IN BARREL LENGTH MEANT A DROP FROM 96% to 88% IN ONE SHOT STOPS - ACCORDING TO MARSHALL HIMSELF. By CJ's own standards this drop would mean that the Federal 45 ACP Hydra-Shock from anything less than 5" barrel would not be fit for "Primary" carry even though the published Marshall numbers for it are 96%. I guess CPL. ED SANOW & EVAN MARSHALL are just ankle biters with an ax to grind, and the editors of Guns & Ammo obviously cannot differentiate between information and propoganda, and anyone who would believe them obviously fits into the "read much and do little" crowd mentioned by CJ. Although it is abundantly evident to any open minded, thinking person that the veracity of the following statement is based on quite a bit more than mere repitition.... I REPEAT - You cannot trust Marshall's numbers in short barrel guns. AND It IS good to consider ALL the facts. Roll Tide Shooterjb Message Board Member Username: Shooterjb Post Number: 62 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 08:46 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Rolltide, No offense, but I realized over 25 years ago, just by studying a Remington catalog, that I was doing better with my Walther PPK/S .380 than best friend at the time who was, and is, a Philadelphia police officer, was doing with his, at the time, issue 4 inch S&W model 10 Military and Police with 158 grain LRN issue ammunition. That was just comparing Remington ammunition. Using the Lee Jurras Supervel ammunition I carried at the time in my PPK/S, I was doing much better. We have both moved on to bigger and better guns since then. In his case a Glock 17 and in my case one of several flavors of 9mm, 40 S&W or .45 ACP. I haven't carried my PPK/S in 20 years and that should tell you something. As far as the .38 special goes in the standard loadings, especially out of a 2” belly gun, I agree with you that it is woefully inadequate. That is why I don’t carry one and don’t recommend them. I hope that this has been of some help. Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 52 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 09:12 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Shooter, No offense taken at all. I appreciate the information and it is helpful, to me anyway. Thanks, Roll Tide Shooterjb Message Board Member Username: Shooterjb Post Number: 63 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 09:13 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi again Rolltide, Unfortunately I did not see your last post before I wrote the post above. Once again, no offense, but even though I presently have a box of 50, I don't use Federal 230 grain hydrashocks in my .45s since I don't like the velocities out of shorter barrels. I recommend them to two of my friends who both carry Sig Sauer P220s. I use Corbon 185 grain +Ps in .45 ACP. In 40 S&W I use the 135 grain Corbon load. In 9mm I like and carry the Corbon 115 grain +Ps. For the infrequent occasions that I carry my S&W Airlight titanium centennial, I use Corbon 110 grain +P+s. For my .32 and .380 Guardians I prefer either Corbon +Ps or Glaser frangible ammunition. I also have RBCD ammo in all of the above calibers which I don’t carry because the RBCD that I have is not the civilian version, is AP and would cause more problems than it is worth if I ever used it. Toml Message Board Member Username: Toml Post Number: 268 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 10:31 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have the same guns and ammo article right here and have quoted from it extensively. I had also seen the qualifying statements re: 38spl out of 2in barrels compared to 4in. Some time ago I quit carrying snubnose 38 guns, and went to the ruger sp101 357, which according to the chrono numbers again, is really coming out of my barrel with some steam, less than my smith 686 6in, but that is understandable, and it is close enough that I think it should still be in the 90% range. I stick by what I have said on my 9mm numbers though, the chrono doesn't lie. When/if I aquire another short barrel 45 I will go to the chrono to decide what to carry in it, it is a great tool that everyone should consider owning......tom Toml Message Board Member Username: Toml Post Number: 269 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 11:07 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- BTW, I owe thanks to cj for getting me interested in chrono numbers. Before I came to this forum last year I thought they were hi tech gadgets that were not for the average guy, how wrong I was, they are reasonably priced and easy to use. And fun! Go get one!.....tom Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 53 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 11:31 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Tom, I am not trying to be argumentative or offensive, but could you post the velocities of some of your 357 loads from your 3" Ruger and the velocities of the same loads in the 6" 686. I sometimes carry a pair of 2 1/2" Dan Wesson 357's, but I have never been sure they would be in the 90%+ One Shot Stop range. I hope they are in the 80%+ range with the 125gr JHP's I stoke them with. What factors make you believe your 3" gun is still in the 90% range? Again, I am not trying to be argumentative. I would like to know your thoughts. I would guess that most of Marshalls numbers are based on 4" and 6" guns since those are the ones most often carried by police and civilians alike. What do you think? As far as your 9mm, both guns are under 5" and there is only 1" difference between them. Some would call both the 4.5" and the 3.5" guns compact guns. Could you post some of those specific numbers as well or tell us where we could find previous posts that may have some of those numbers? That would be most interesting for those of us who do not own a chronograph. Thanks. Best Regards, Roll Tide Toml Message Board Member Username: Toml Post Number: 270 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 01:23 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I will compile some numbers this weekend if you like, I work swing and I am out the door. I did not post numbers because they have been posted quite a bit here, I want to dig up some of cjs numbers to compare with mine anyway. I just got my chrony two weeks ago. Alot of LEO carry glocks, so that is why I am assuming some of the marshall numbers have to be out of 4 or 4.5 inch guns. I wish it was broken down further for us so we know what kind of guns and barrel lengths are involved. There does seem to be some question whether all or most of these shootings marshall uses to compile his stats are LEO. This question was just raised in the magsafe thread further down the board here.......tom Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 54 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 12:15 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Shooter, What size gun do you shoot the Corbon 45acp +P loads in? I was wondering about recoil in compact 45's. I most often carry an all steel compact .45 if I anticipate a serious need to go armed. I would like to know what led you to decide on the Corbon load in 45. I might switch to that myself. I do carry Corbon myself in 9mm and have tried it in 32acp. I'll bet touching off a +P+ round in that S&W Airlite Titanium is a REAL ride. You are a better man than I am. Roll Tide Ironhorzmn Message Board Member Username: Ironhorzmn Post Number: 7 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 07:40 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- The idea that a person's real weapon is between his ears rather than at the end of his arm is something I've believed for a long time. I also agree that it's better to have a small gun than no gun at all. For the longest time I carried either a Colt Mustang .380 (steel frame, not the Pocketlite) or a S&W J-Frame .38 in a shoulder holster with at least two and sometimes four reloads. In Florida heat, carrying (and concealing) such an arsenal requires an almost religious devotion. When I bought my Guardian .32 and found a Don Hume J.I.T. Slide belt holster that fits it like a glove, I knew right then that I had found my perfect carry gun. I had developed a lower back condition that made wearing any gun on my belt sheer torture by pressing on nerves on my hip. My Colt holster barely avoided these painful pressure points but just barely. The Guardian in its Don Hume holster took up very little space and fit perfectly on the front of my left hip; avoiding all these pressure points. So it's a matter of carrying small vs. not at all. Another point I would like to mention is the idea of carrying different guns in different situations. Although, thankfully, I've never been in a deadly force situation, I have been quite thoroughly trained by the US Navy as a security policeman, including uncountable pistol qualifications and requalifications under varying degrees of applied stress. Under stress the simplest motions, if not practiced to the extreme, become impossible. If you have not practiced, for example, unsnapping your duty holster while drawing your pistol on the range, then in a genuine deadly force situation you will try to literally pull your gun through its snapped safety strap. I know. This means keeping your pistol/holster/spare ammo setup as simple and unchanging as possible. I carry the same gun, in the same holster, on the same point on my hip, with the same kind of covering garment, all the time. Carrying a .45 on Saturday in a belt holster under a polo shirt, then a .38 in a shoulder holster under a dress coat Sunday night, then switching to a .32 in an ankle holster at work on Monday seems to me a recipe for stress-induced paralysis in a potential deadly force situation. I'd much rather have a .32 within easy reach of my left hand on my hip every single time. I'm no expert, but I know my limitations and what is likely to work best for me. Ironhorzmn Message Board Member Username: Ironhorzmn Post Number: 8 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 07:49 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- RE: One-Shot Stops: Has anyone done any research on the effectiveness of TWO-shot stops?? Perhaps we might find out that 'double-taps' with smaller calibers such as the .32 might be more effective than conventional wisdom tells us. Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 61 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 10:17 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Ironhorzmn, Real interesting points about changing carry around. I had never thought about that before. What you said makes a lot of sense to me. Roll Tide Billinpittsburg Message Board Member Username: Billinpittsburg Post Number: 199 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 11:38 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Although one gun always carried in one holster is always best from a training/automatic reaction standpoint, the only time it really works for those who don't make their living by carrying a gun is with pocket guns. With anything larger, you need several different options to deal with various temperatures and dress codes. Right hip carry is great when wearing a coat or a sweater but simply doesn't work when wearing a tucked-in shirt with no covering garment. There is simply no one mode of carry that works well for all situations. The solution to any increased difficulty that multile carry methods causes is simply to train with each, although for most you will be limited to practicing with an empty gun at home. Ironhorzmn Message Board Member Username: Ironhorzmn Post Number: 9 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 04:39 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Perhaps I should have said that it's not a good idea to keep changing carry methods all the time; that is, if you change from a .45 on a belt holster to a .38 in a shoulder holster, it should be done for perhaps a minimum of a week or so before switching once again. Constantly switching carry guns and modes can induce a split-second hesitation (...NOW where did I put that damn gun? What do I have to do this time to get to it? What safeties or thumb snaps do I have to release?) that could make the difference between gaining the advantage or playing 'catch-up' with an attacker. I've trained with a strong side belt holster in the Navy literally thousands of times so it's most likely the best setup for me. The only other problem, besides those damn pressure points on my hip, is a suitable covering garment that allows me to access the Guardian with roughly the same motion. The untucked and unbuttoned short-sleeve shirt has always worked for me. With a tank top underneath, I can wear this combination in the worst Florida heat and humidity and still draw and fire in a second. I ride a Harley (surprise, huh?) and find that a denim vest over the shirt keeps the whole thing from flapping in the wind and makes little difference in the draw, providing that you stop the bike and remember to put the kickstand down first. (Usually it's better to stay on the bike and get the hell outa there. I know this too, to my embarrassment.) With such clothing a shoulder holster is also a good option but even after at least five hundred practice draws I'm still not comfortable with using one. Even the small amount of movement of a shoulder holster, as much as an inch or two, has to be factored into the mental picture of drawing and presenting the firearm and can also contribute to that split-second hesitation. So I put my belt holster on my left hip, right over a belt loop, and it doesn't move a half-inch. In the worst-case surprise attack (I hope) I'll be able to grip, draw and present my Guardian in less than a second with absolutely no variables requiring conscious thought. Again, I'm not Jim Cirillo or Jeff Cooper, or even CJ, ;) but I've carried for the better part of twenty years, even in anti-gun states like Massachusetts and California (where applicants for concealed weapons permits are treated like sex-offenders registering under Megan's Law) and given it a lot of thought. Shooterjb Message Board Member Username: Shooterjb Post Number: 66 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 08:39 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Ironhorzmn, Your arguments are why I always carried either just behind my right hip or in one of my pockets. Usually I carry in both places. I have been carrying a gun in either place for over 30 years. I have never had much luck with shoulder holsters either. Billinpittsburg Message Board Member Username: Billinpittsburg Post Number: 200 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 10:01 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I sometimes switch guns and carry modes 2-3 times a day. Morning run - Glock 26 in a fanny pack. During the day - pocket gun in my strong side front pocket. Evening - Glock 26 in a shoulder holster, under my waist-length jacket. Re: safeties: My thumb makes the same downward motion across the left side of the slide whether I am drawing a cocked and locked 1911 or a Glock. Re: straps: I only use them with shoulder holsters. If I am going for s ahoulder holster I know I have to hit the thumb break, otherwise I know it is just grab the gun and draw. Re: where did I put my gun? Even though the weight of the gun isn't uncomfortable with a good holster, it is a truly rare moment when I am now aware that it is there and where it is. The right hip might work great with a jacket, sweater, or untucked shirt, but what about while running with no shirt, or where a tucked-in shirt is mandatory but a jacket would look funny? The shoulder holster is great under a waist-length jacket which might ride up and expose an IWB holster, but will print horribly under a suit jacket, which will hide a strong side hip holster much better. Sure, I'd love to have my Glock on my right hip all the time, but even after 7 1/2 years of carrying a gun for at least some portion of every day, I just don't see how I can do it. Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 63 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 09:53 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Tom, I am sorry you nor anyone else in this thread have been able to post any of your personal chrono numbers. That would have been most interesting. I did find some numbers on the 357 magnum though. You may find the following muzzle velocity information for .357 mag useful. It is from the Speer reloading Manual 13th Edition. As numerous people have pointed out to me there are a lot of other variables in addition to bbl length (cylinder gap being one of them). bbl length..................bullet wt ..................125........140........158 grains 2.5".............1201.......1123......1013 fps .................(10)........(8)........(23) 4.0".............1365.......1237......1135 fps .................(23)........(34).......(21) 6.0".............1465.......1338......1203 fps .................(129)......(94)........(91) Numbers in () are standard deviations. Study included 3 firearms for 2.5 inches, 7 firearms for 4.0 inches, and 10 firearms for 6.0 inches (all revolvers of course). Once again you can see significant loss of velocity with reduction in barrel length. This will translate directly to significant drops in stopping power and this is the rule rather than the exception in most any caliber. Radioflyer Message Board Member Username: Radioflyer Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 06:46 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Mouse gun! I dont think is a great way to describe exactly what these small guns are or do. I would call the function they perform PERSONAL PROTECTION. Up close and personal.For me its not a matter of second place for me its a matter of Im in a situation I absolutly can not avoid.My first responsibility is to family and friends as close as family and that means to me is to get them out of harms way. That means get the hell out of there. Not stand and fight. You want to take my wallet? take it you want my car please take it if your lucky you might make the state line. But threaten life or limb mine or family. Up close and personal is where that road leads. Are there any winners in a gunfight? You might say no but the one left breathing is in first place. Will I get my hands dirty? Oh yes and bloody and maybe even shot up and dead. Who knows . But it wont happen in most cases untill I put as many holes in you as i can. The last act of defiance. I know all this sounds like tough talk and thats all it is. but Thats what personal defense is a good attitude. The size of the gun matters. For me personal protection means just that. I guess if you carry around a combat shotgun most will leave you alone. At 5' 6" 170 lbs. 380 G is personal protection. Anything larger is very difficult for me to carry. On extended car trips I have a glock 26. But every time I go out I got something in my pocket. The rest is being aware of your suroundings and becomimg really good at finding the exit and taking it and your family along with you. Personal protection is what you feel it needs to be. Lucky for me NAA makes a 380G! I feel the terms persoanl protection defines a small easily accessable weapon. One that you have fully trained with and can use in your sleep. One that you have complete confidence in . Find it and use it. Dont hide behind a bigger stick learn to use the one you have.OR not . You know what your needs are. Go with them Shooterjb Message Board Member Username: Shooterjb Post Number: 70 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 07:23 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Radioflyer, I do not try to force my personal choices on anyone, but I have had a lot of experience in dealing with bad situations, and many people that I work with seem to ask my advice about firearms. My choices are just that, my personal choices based on my experience and situation in life. I am not criticizing whatever you have decided works best for you based on your life situation. I have both a Guardian .32 and Guardian .380, but I use them primarily in a backup role. They are both excellent guns and I would not own and carry them if they were not. With guns available like the Kahr PM9 and the Para-Ordnance C.6.45.LDA I don't have any trouble carrying something heavier for my primary gun though, as long as I use a quality holster like the ones that I buy from Ron Graham. Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 65 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 08:27 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I agree with Radioflyer about using your head and retreating if possible. As a matter of fact, in many states you are legally bound to retreat (unless you are inside your home) before using lethal force and will be sent to prison if you do not take advantage of a SAFE retreat before using lethal force. I would certainly not shoot anyone over my wallet or my car either. I for one am greatful that NAA offers such high quality pocket guns in evrything from deep concealment 22 shorts to very serious 32ACP, 380, and 32NAA calibers. Dwight_frye Message Board Member Username: Dwight_frye Post Number: 56 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 10:22 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Size...might matter but forme...(My opinion). Real life matters.. Before i got my G32... I carried a S$W 380 or a Glock 40(very little) a total of maybe 10% of the time. Now i carry the G32 about 75% of the time. That's a big increase for myself...it's all about what you feel comfortable with...also the area and the gun culture...Out west i imagine you can get away with more...also you might not see a cop for days...here in NC..it's not the same...even with a ccl..which doen't leave you alot of legal places to carry...Myself i have chosen to carry small and break the so called law(even though i have a CCl). it's just easier to hide. If i lived out west hell i might wear Two sixshooters and carry a rifle!! Krakenbound Message Board Member Username: Krakenbound Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 11:09 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Wow! What a thread! Thanks to all who contributed so far! Here's where I'm coming from, and my 2cents on the matter: I've been a soldier (Ranger), a cop (MP), a SWAT sniper (Army SRT), and now, a civilian computer guy working 9-5 in the socialist state of California. Over the last 20 years I've been shot at twice (never hit!), I've shot 2 people, I've "drawn-down" on 10 or so felons, been assaulted (as a civilian) 5 times, have used Mace on 3 attackers, and have used a knife once. I have seen, with my own eyes, what effect pistol and rifle bullets have in combat. My observations: Rifles are one shot stoppers, Pistols are 2-3 shot stoppers. I really envy you guys (and gals) in carry states. I don’t have any connections in CA, so my only legal choice is to carry a knife and a can of Mace when on the street. As for "not-legal" choices, I've found that even the smallest Glock is not capable of being deep-concealed, which is an absolute requirement for me, in this gun-unfriendly state. So, after 15 years of trying, and failing, to comfortably and effectively carry small 9mm's, 40’s and 45's on or near my body all day long, I ponied up today and bought a G32. I MUST BE ABLE TO CONTROL MY DESTINY 24/7, and having a Glock in a butt-pack, which sometimes is left on the seat of my Jeep, or under my desk at work, or forgotten under a chair in a restaurant (gasp!), or just left at home because I feared “stormtrooper” contact that day, just wasn’t cutting it any more. We all would like to have the most firepower we can muster during combat. REALITY DICTATES, however, that we must live within the constraints and norms of our social environment... mine is that of a semi-socialist police state with citizen zombies buying into the "guns are bad" mantra of their leaders and media. I think if you were trapped in the same "twilight zone episode" as I am here, you'd eventually choose a "Mouse Gun" too! I KNOW that if I dump 7 rounds of hot .32 ammo into a bad-guy at near touching distance, he’s going down, and pretty darn FAST! Thanks NAA, for working to get your great pistols into California. You’ve got a customer for life. Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 790 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 09:20 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Krackenbound: No one would disagree that big bore is better than small more, or that a rifle is better than a pistol, with respect to stopping power. But you are right, reality dictates choice. Because this is a pocket gun board, I tend to focus on pocket guns. I own about 17 handguns and carry a 357 or 45, but not 24/7. What I carry everyday, rain or shine,is a pocketgun. The reason is that it is easy to do, and beats a rock. I have to go to California once and awhile on business. Great weather. Fun place to be. But I cannot take the politics of the state. I could never live there. Do you know that it is now a crime to sell a holster for a pocket gun in LA. I mean, what is going through the minds of the LA City Council--that gang-bangers aren't going to carry guns because they can't get matching leather for it? Like Chicago, handguns are illegal there even for retired LEO's, yet the criminals still remain armed. Common sense seems to be in short supply in California, Maryland, DC, Chicago, et cetera. Billinpittsburg Message Board Member Username: Billinpittsburg Post Number: 214 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 09:01 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I've read comments by one former LEO that criminals are more likely not to use holsters, and that law-abiding citizens are more likely. The reasons: Criminals may need to ditch their guns quickly, and the holster is one more thing to ditch. Criminals don't need to carry their guns 24/7. They only need the gun when they plan to attack someone. They don't need the same level of comfort or security that we do in a carry system. Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 71 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 09:21 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- 9mm comparison of same loads and different barrel lengths. Note that some loads change only 42FPS with 1.9" change in barrel length while others change as much as 165FPS. Seeing that the best 9mm loads are only 91% and 90% one shot stoppers according to Marshall, any loss at all put them under the 90% minimum set by some folks here for primary carry. All the 90% loads are +P+ rounds so it is almost certain that the shootings with these rounds were full size metal guns that were almost universal in the shooting community, especially the police community, up until 10 years ago. Marshall has had his numbers out for many years, so his findings had to come from years before that in order to collect enough instances to be statistically significant. This probably means mostly guns with a barrel length around 5" were used in those shootings. The best +P 9mm round is only an 83% stopper (83 % 124 gr Speer Gold Dot JHP +P) in Marshall's numbers. The best 45ACP round in Marshall's numbers dropped 8% with a reduction of just ¾" in barrel length. If you assume at least 10% reduction on average when dropping 2" in length, that puts EVERY 9MM ROUND THAT IS NOT +P+ DOWN INTO THE 73% ONE SHOT STOP RANGE OUT OF A 3" BARREL. Bear in mind that firing +P+ ammo in most guns will VOID YOUR WARRANTY!!! Not only that but +P+ rounds have wicked recoil in small light guns. So in short barrel guns firing +P or less ammo, you are probably around 73% one shot stops while the 380 is 71% and the 32ACP is 66%. So to answer Tom's question about how you get a 32ACP to come up to compact 9MM performance, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SHOOT IT !!!!!!!! Bullet Type......................Barrel Length .....................................3.1"...........5" Cor Bon +p jhp 115gr.........1220fps......1346fps Federal +p EFMJ 124gr.......1094fps......1127fps Georgia Arms +p jhp 124gr..1143fps......1185fps Pro Load +p jhp 115gr........1174fps......1329fps Winchester Silvertip jhp 115gr.............1064fps......1191fps Shooterjb Message Board Member Username: Shooterjb Post Number: 74 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 11:56 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Rolltide, I have read some of your posts with interest. As far as chronograph figures go, I have not been writing mine down. I did take some, I believe for .22 LR ammunition, directly off of my chronograph's memory and post them on Ron Graham’s forum. If you want to do research into calibers, barrel lengths and velocities, meaning no offense, I suggest that you spend your time, your money on a chronograph, and your money on the ammunition that you are interested in to do the research rather than challenging other people to produce their results. My time is too valuable to do research for you, and premium ammunition is expensive. Much of your data is obviously taken from web sites, magazine articles and loading manuals. Normally I would not waste my time to disagree, and the only reason that I am writing this is that there are many new shooters on this web site. For you to say that a .32 acp bullet is almost as effective as a 9mm Corbon 115 grain +P in a self defense situation, is not only ridiculous, but doing the newer shooters, who are here to learn something, a serious disservice. Some of them might actually believe, and trust their lives, to what you are saying. I am a firm believer in an “always” or backup gun. The Guardians are the best, and one of my two Guardians is always with me. I know what their role is though, and I do not delude myself about what they can do. Shooterjb Message Board Member Username: Shooterjb Post Number: 75 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 12:12 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Rolltide, I have read some of your posts with interest. As far as chronograph figures go, I have not been writing mine down. I did take some, I believe for .22 LR ammunition, directly off of my chronograph's memory and post them on Ron Graham’s forum. If you want to do research into calibers, barrel lengths and velocities, meaning no offense, I suggest that you spend your time, your money on a chronograph, and your money on the ammunition that you are interested in to do the research rather than challenging other people to produce their results. My time is too valuable to do research for you, and premium ammunition is expensive. Much of your data is obviously taken from web sites, magazine articles and loading manuals. Normally I would not waste my time to disagree, and the only reason that I am writing this is that there are many new shooters on this web site. For you to say that a .32 acp bullet is almost as effective as a 9mm Corbon 115 grain +P in a self defense situation, is not only ridiculous, but doing the newer shooters, who are here to learn something, a serious disservice. Some of them might actually believe, and trust their lives, to what you are saying. I am a firm believer in an “always” or backup gun. The Guardians are the best, and one of my two Guardians is always with me. I know what their role is though, and I do not delude myself about what they can do. Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 74 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 02:09 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Well Shooter, I guess you thought your post was so nice, you just had to say it twice. (just kidding) I have enjoyed reading your opinions, even when I don't share them. I would ask you to consider a few points before you dismiss all the facts that I have presented in this thread. 1. I have NEVER asked you or anyone else to do ANY research for me. I just suggested that you guys who have your own chronographs (and say you have all this data that you have collected) post some meaningful numbers since you are so ready to poo poo everyone who doesn't have one. Why should I buy one? I already have several orders of magnitude more meaningful information on the subject just by doing a little intelligent research than you guys have because you cannot afford the time or the bullets to do your own research even though you have the chronograph. (Actually I do intend to buy a chronograph for some 45/70 hunting reloads and so forth, but why would anyone waste their own time and money on testing factory loads when so many other reputable people have already done it and posted their results. JUST READ !!!) 2. I do not delude myself about the 32. I know it is only a 66% stopper. I have carefully weighed all the facts available and have decided to carry a 32 most of the time and adjusted my practice and preparation to account for the modest one shot stop numbers of the 32 rounds. I would suggest everyone else go through a similar process for their own situation and what they carry. I just state what I do and why. If that does not apply to you or your situation just ignore it and go on. 3. While you do not delude yourself about what a 32 can do, I believe you may well be deluded about what a 9MM will do out of a short (3") barrel. THAT COULD GET YOU AND OTHERS KILLED !!! (As stated above the best 9MM +P round in Marshalls numbers is 83% and that was probably out of full size barrels. As a matter of fact, 2 standard velocity loads were also 83% stoppers.) What is the one shot stop data for the Corbon 115gr +P from a 3" barrel? Would you have to guess, postulate, or down right prognosticate at that number? I KNOW WHAT THE ONE SHOT STOP NUMBERS ARE FOR WHAT I SHOOT and prepare and act accordingly? NOW WHO is being ridiculous here? I have never said that the 32 is any better than you say it is, I am just saying that the 9MM (or any other "PRIMARY" caliber in a short barrel) may not be nearly as good as you say it is. I have backed that up with solid data. WHERE IS YOUR DATA? Since you have a computer with web access (and your own chronograph besides), why don't you post your data as to why one shot stop numbers don't drop drastically when muzzle velocity is reduced due to short barrels? Or are we to simply believe that idea is "ridiculous" simply because you graciously decided to "waste your time to disagree"? I was challenged in this thread to produce the data to back up my opinions. I have done so many times more that anyone else in this thread. Now I challenge you to show us the data to refute what I have said. (I would emphasise that you address what I ACTUALLY said as opposed to what you INFER from what I said. You seem intelligent enough to make that distinction, otherwise I would not waste my time to bring the point up.) Otherwise I will be forced to consider your thoughts as groundless opinions based on your gut instincts. Frankly, I am not very impressed by gut instincts. I do admit my "ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SHOOT IT" comment above was a little over the top, but I just could not resist a little tongue in cheek humor with the SMUG attitudes of people who challenge others when they have no basis in fact to do so. GOT FACTS ?????????????????? LET'S SEE'EM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I may well be wrong but that will certainly not be proven on the basis of OPINION. I do not see myself as "the authority" with "the experience" who needs to watch over all the "new shooters" and what they read. I figure we are all adults here who can judge the facts for ourselves and make the appropriate decisions for our own lives and situations. Best Regards, Roll Tide Dwight_frye Message Board Member Username: Dwight_frye Post Number: 66 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 07:29 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- A 32 maybe a 66% one shotstopper!!!...but i plan on shooting more than once...i wonder what the percentage would be for 2 hits ....three hits.. etc...I'm going to double tap there ass straight to hell...then let everyone debate percentages! Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 75 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 12:11 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Dwight, My Guardian is not a single shot pistol either, and I will take full advantage of that fact to stop a lethal threat. For a single assailant I would use a triple tap. For multiple assailants I would use the double tap. I generally carry 7 Silvertips in the gun, and a mag wallet with one 10 round mag full of FMJ and one 6 round mag full of Silvertips. I hope I never need the gun at all, but if I do, there will be no half measures or depending on one shot to stop the threat. I do carry a compact 45 or snub nose 357's when I feel the need to be better armed, but I do not count on them still being 90%+ one shot stoppers in those short barrels. I do pretty much count on them to to be 2 shot stoppers. I train for multiple taps with those guns as well. I think that a double tap from a 32 would stop anyone that would be stopped by a double tap from a compact 9MM and that a triple tap would most likely be preferred from either the 32 or the compact 9MM, but I could be wrong about that. Since I can triple tap faster and more reliably with a STANDARD 32 than I can with a HOT 9MM, I figure I may have a slight edge with the 32 over the 9MM (still I could be wrong). The 32 is always there and I could not carry the compact 9MM everywhere. If I am going to carry something the size and weight of a compact 9MM, I choose a 45 or 357 instead, since they are much more powerful I can double tap them in the guns I carry (Llama MiniMax 45ACP or Dan Wesson 357)about as fast as I can a HOT 9MM in a Kahr or Kel-Tec (which I used to own and carry when I thought the same as Shooter, before I really thought through the power reduction in short barrel guns.) To be honest with the numbers, you really have to carry a 5" barrel 9MM with +P+ rounds, a 5" 45 with good rounds, or a 4" 357 with good rounds before you really get into the 90% one shot stop range. I have really not investigated the 40 calibers very much. I think they may offer the most reliable 90% stoppers in the smallest package, but that is just a guess since I have not run the numbers on that caliber other than just an overview. My thinking is this. If you ABSOLUTELY MUST have a one shot stop, you better carry a shotgun or rifle. If you MUST count on a one shot stop and CAN'T carry a shotgun or rifle, the 90% stoppers listed in the previous paragraph are the smallest packages that can be relied on to get you as close as possible. If you must resort to multiple shots, then the fastest thing that will reliably deliver 3 shots that are likely to stop the threat is the choice. Pistol control with multiple shots and threat assessment weigh heavily in this decision if multiple shots are required, in addition to stopping power. If the threat level goes up, then my caliber and the size of the gun go up as well. I would certainly not fault Shooter or Tom or anyone for carrying as big a gun as they can and feel necessary. I do the same thing, but when I balance available, controlable and reliable vs the threat likely to be encountered, a 32ACP in my front pocket gets the nod 90% of the time in my life considering the places I frequent and the threat level in those places. There are some places I have frequented where I would make sure I had a full size pistol on my person and a 12 ga shotgun and/or AK47 in the trunk, but fortunately I do not frequent those places much anymore. I think these kind on real life balances and choices are what most of us have to live with. This was the point of Canis' original post. We will each make various choices, but I still repeat it is good to consider all the facts available. The possible life and death consequences are too important for any of us to fool ourselves about what we carry (as Shooter and others have pointed out) Know the real limits of what you carry and train accordingly. That does not guarantee personal safety, but it does increase our chances of survival. My choices won't work for everyone, nor their choices for me, that is what makes life interesting. Best Regards to all, Roll Tide Dwight_frye Message Board Member Username: Dwight_frye Post Number: 68 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 04:21 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Rolltide For me...i went from carrying a 380 or a Glock 40 about maybe 10% of the time...now with the G32 i carry about 75% of the time...so that ends the great caliber debate for me...so i agree with you...if i need a bigger gun etc...then i will carry one Shooterjb Message Board Member Username: Shooterjb Post Number: 97 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 12:15 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Folks, I recently posted an update to this thread on Ron Graham's forum at: http://www.grahamholsters.com/ under Forum, General Discussions. Some of the people on this board may find it interesting and useful. Best Regards Billinpittsburg Message Board Member Username: Billinpittsburg Post Number: 283 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 09:58 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- From Shooterjb's data, it doesn't look like that much is really lost by going to a short barrel. I doubt an attacker will notice the difference between a 9mm going 1350 FPS and a 9mm going 1246 FPS. He might, however, notice the difference between a 9mm and a .32. I carry a mousegun as a primary gun far more often than I would like not because I think it is the best choice for self-defense, but because it is the most workable choice for the circumstances in question. Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 76 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 11:03 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Quote from shooterjb's post on Graham's forum: A couple of months ago I engaged in a long debate on the NAA message board with someone who posts under “Rolltide” in the “Mouse gun Mentality” thread. Rolltide insisted that a NAA Guardian .32 acp was as effective as a 9mm, a 40 S&W, and even a .45 acp out of the short barreled carry pistols that most of us use. I finally just got tired of debating with him since, as they say, each to his own and he is the one who has to live, or not, with his choices. While there is a definite use for the NAA guns as a backup or deep concealment gun, and I will certainly continue to use mine for those purposes, I think that the following results speak for themselves. With the Kahr P40 covert I got the following results: Corbon 135 grain JHP 40 S&W: 1259, 1267, 1283, 1289, 1313, 1288 with an average of 1283 fps. Federal 165 grain 40 S&W Hydra Shocks (issued by and obtained from a trooper with the Maryland State Police): 974, 966, 973, 962, 963, 964 with an average of 967 fps. Winchester White Box 165 grain FMJFP Target 40 S&W: 988, 1010 1025,1011, 1009, 1001, 1006, 1001, 1013, 1018, 1032 with an average of 1009fps. With the Kahr PM9 I got the following results: Corbon 9mm 115 grain +P JHP: 1248, 1256, 1243, 1232, 1226, 1247, 1271 with an average of 1246 fps. With the NAA Guardian .380 I got the following results: Corbon .380 90 grain +P JHP: 944, 984, 924, 949, 1018, 955, 948 with an average of 960 fps. End of quote. Shooterjb, Thanks for the great numbers. I appreciate you going to the trouble and expense to collect the data and posting it here (or there). While a chrono can indeed take the conjecture out of velocity and energy figures, it does not take the conjecture out of what those numbers mean in the real world. At that point we are still just GUESSING unless we do the kind of research that Marshall or Towert have done. Who would GUESS that a cartridge the size of the 38 Special would be equal in one shot stops from a snub nose to the one shot stops of a cartridge the size of the 32ACP, but it is. Who would GUESS that reducing the barrel length in a 45 ACP by just 3/4" would drop the one shot stops from 96% to 88%, but it did. Some FACTS are counter intuitive, so GUESSING about what about 10% drops in velocity will mean in the real world can be risky business. Where did I ever insist "that a NAA Guardian .32 acp was as effective as a 9mm, a 40 S&W, and even a .45 acp out of the short barreled carry pistols that most of us use." I NEVER SAID THAT !!!!!!!! HERE IS WHAT I DID SAY IN THIS POST. SCROLL UP TO READ IT FOR YOURSELF IN CONTEXT. 1. "For all those who carry compact guns in "stopper" calibers. Don't trust Marshall's numbers unless they are specific to barrel length. "Primary" calibers like 38 special, 357, 9mm, 40S&W, and 45 loose effectiveness drastically in shorter barrels. Many who advocate "Primary" gun use here also mention that they carry compact guns in major calibers as "Primaries". Many would be suprised to know that their compact "Primary" is significantly reduced in power and may even be in the same stopping range as a 32 "mousegun" or 380. Bullets that reliably expand out of a 5" 45acp DO NOT reliably expand in my 3.5" 45acp. When you get to short pistol barrels, 2 inches less barrel length may drop your one shot stop numbers by as much as 20% or more WITH THE EXACT SAME LOAD. Always good to consider ALL the facts!" 2. "While it is true some loads may not change much from 2" to 4" barrels, my point is some will change drastically and exactly what you have done with your own chronographs needs to be done before you trust Marshall's data." 3. "My main point before, regardless of what a certain person chooses to read into it, is that you cannot trust Marshall's data in compact guns since it was data most likely collected when full size guns were probably dominant in most of the cases recorded. It may be the same, it may not, but you cannot trust it until you verify it by other means, as some here have done and thus proved they did not trust the data until they verified it for themselves in their compact weapons. BUT JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE VERIFIED THAT ONE LOAD WAS ROUGHLY EQUIVALENT BETWEEEN ONE COMPACT GUN AND ONE FULL SIZE GUN, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IS ALWAYS THE CASE IN DIFFERNT GUNS AND CALIBERS AS THE TOWERT NUMBERS INDICATE." 4. "Once again you can see significant loss of velocity with reduction in barrel length. This will translate directly to significant drops in stopping power and this is the rule rather than the exception in most any caliber." 5. "I do carry a compact 45 or snub nose 357's when I feel the need to be better armed, but I do not count on them still being 90%+ one shot stoppers in those short barrels. I do pretty much count on them to to be 2 shot stoppers." While I do appreciate that your posted chrono numbers basically reiterate and verify numbers I already posted for the 9mm, I DO NOT APPRECIATE YOU TWISTING AND DISTORTING WHAT I SAY. I certainly understand why you might have chosen to post your comments not just in another thread but in an entirely different forum where it would be more difficult to assess your comments in the proper context of this original post. To your credit you did at least provide us a link to the other site. Thanks again for your info on the 40 caliber in the Kahr. That is info I had not found posted anywhere else and it is very useful, to me at least. Best Regards, Roll Tide Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 1088 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 01:33 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Rolltide: The fact that Marshall/Sadow OSS numbers differ because a specific cartridge is used in a shorter barrel gun may have nothing to do with the bullet's ballistics and may have more with bullet placement. What Marshall/Sadow do not report is whether a bullet performs as designed. In the Marshall/Sadow books, frangible ammo is treated quite well. Yet, on his web site, Marshall claims to express no opinion as to the preformance of frangible ammo because he hasn't seen enough data on them. It seems that neither Marshall now Sadow edits the chapters that the other wrote. So who do you trust--Marshall or Sadow? What Shooterjb was trying to do is to simply indicate that the ballistics of a larger caliber firearm, even when fired from a compact frame/barrelled gun, perform better than the ballistics of a mousegun. Dr16 Message Board Member Username: Dr16 Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2003 Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 03:23 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Some one once said "the bigger the hole, the bigger the leak"! Dr16 Message Board Member Username: Dr16 Post Number: 4 Registered: 07-2003 Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 03:24 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Someone once said "the bigger the hole, the bigger the leak"! Oldgranpa Message Board Member Username: Oldgranpa Post Number: 45 Registered: 06-2003 Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 05:37 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- After reading all this again, I'm more confused than ever. So here's my stupid question(s). Is a 380 a mousegun? Where do you draw the line? og Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 77 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 06:39 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Georgeh, The question has NEVER been about superior ballistics. I have never argued that the compact "primary" calibers do not have superior baliistics and even OSS numbers than the 32 ACP does. THEY DO !!!!!!! It is a matter of how much better and what that means in the real world. I have even said that I carry 2 different compact primaries for more serious situations (a 357 snubnose and a compact 45). The 44 mag has much, much better ballistics than any 9mm, but they are about dead even in one shot stops in real life. The 38 special in a snubnose has superior balistics to the 32 acp, but in stopping power they are dead even. Superior ballistics does not equate to a proportional rise in stopping power. That is what Shooter has never understood. Oldgranpa, The best load in the 32ACP(66% to 67% one shot stops) is about the same as the best load in the 380 (70% to 71% one shot stops). I carry the 32 everyday beacuse the gun is smaller and lighter and the spare mags are are much smaller and lighter. Recoil is much less with the 32 and that means I can shoot faster with it. Since a 32ACP, the 380, and the 38 snub nose are almost indentical in real world shootings, I guess if one is a "mousegun" all 3 are "mouseguns." I think any of the 3 would be substantial defense and it boils down to personal preference. Best Regards to all, Roll Tide Oldgranpa Message Board Member Username: Oldgranpa Post Number: 46 Registered: 06-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 07:05 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Very well, let's see if I've got this right.... if I have to use my "mouse gun" I better be able to fire 2 or 3 well placed rounds at a BG. One is not enough. Guess I'll go practice. og Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 1092 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 07:23 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I'm soooo confused, I'm leaving. I'm going to Traverse City, Michigan with my son for a week at the beach. If I didn't have to take my wife, I'd give a go at chasing beach bunnies, but with a different gun than a firearm. See you in a week. Billinpittsburg Message Board Member Username: Billinpittsburg Post Number: 298 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 09:12 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Rolltide, I had heard that the .32 and .380 have similar one shot stop percentages, but there are way too many variables that go into these percentages to derive from that information that the .32 and .380 are about equally good. The .380 launches a 50% heavier projectile having a larger diameter at the same velocity. That's going to do more damage when it hits than a .32. More damage equals more likelihood of a one-shot stop. If that isn't happening, then that is a sure sign that there are unaccounted-for variables at work. Most of the .32's people are carrying today are about the size of .25 autos of yesterday. Most of the .380's out there are roughly the size of compact 9mm's, with only a few exceptions like the NAA Guardian. Also, prior to guns like the NAA .380 coming out, .380's were often not the choice of the serious shooter. Those who didn't like .38 revolvers went with 9mm autos. That's why Smith & Wesson could market a disposable .380 (2,500 round expected life span) and yet offer a lifetime warranty - they didn't figure that a .380 purchaser would practice anything near as often as a .38 revolver purchaser. So, we have at least two differences between one-shot stop date for .32 and .380. First, .32 would have been adopted by skilled and dedicated shooters prior to super-small .380's with decent life expectancies, while .380's were adopted by people of less skill and dedication, resulting in better shot placement among the .32 users. Alternatively, the larger size and better sights of the .380's might have encouraged people to shoot at distances where a .32 user would have passed up the shot. Granted, much of the above is speculation. However, what is not speculation is that the same shooter, at whatever skill level, is going to be better off with a gun shooting a 50% heavier projectile having a larger diameter at the same velocity. If that fact isn't reflected in the one-shot stop data, then one must examine the one-shot stop data for other unaccounted-for variables. Billinpittsburg Message Board Member Username: Billinpittsburg Post Number: 299 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 09:15 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Rolltide, I had heard that the .32 and .380 have similar one shot stop percentages, but there are way too many variables that go into these percentages to derive from that information that the .32 and .380 are about equally good. The .380 launches a 50% heavier projectile having a larger diameter at the same velocity. That's going to do more damage when it hits than a .32. More damage equals more likelihood of a one-shot stop. If that isn't happening, then that is a sure sign that there are unaccounted-for variables at work. Most of the .32's people are carrying today are about the size of .25 autos of yesterday. Most of the .380's out there are roughly the size of compact 9mm's, with only a few exceptions like the NAA Guardian. Also, prior to guns like the NAA .380 coming out, .380's were often not the choice of the serious shooter. Those who didn't like .38 revolvers went with 9mm autos. That's why Smith & Wesson could market a disposable .380 (2,500 round expected life span) and yet offer a lifetime warranty - they didn't figure that a .380 purchaser would practice anything near as often as a .38 revolver purchaser. So, we have at least two differences between one-shot stop date for .32 and .380. First, .32 would have been adopted by skilled and dedicated shooters prior to super-small .380's with decent life expectancies, while .380's were adopted by people of less skill and dedication, resulting in better shot placement among the .32 users. Alternatively, the larger size and better sights of the .380's might have encouraged people to shoot at distances where a .32 user would have passed up the shot. Granted, much of the above is speculation. However, what is not speculation is that the same shooter, at whatever skill level, is going to be better off with a gun shooting a 50% heavier projectile having a larger diameter at the same velocity. If that fact isn't reflected in the one-shot stop data, then one must examine the one-shot stop data for other unaccounted-for variables. Dwight_frye Message Board Member Username: Dwight_frye Post Number: 128 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 09:52 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Bill, I have the S&W 380...and it's not a bad little gun...of course at the time i bought it i didn't know it was suppose to be disposible. i intend to hold them to there Life time warranty. Unless i sell it this weekend or trade it in on 22mag/22lr revolver at the gunshow. I for one love the .380 cartridge!!Pefect for my life style etc...other people may have other choices. Billinpittsburg Message Board Member Username: Billinpittsburg Post Number: 301 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 11:07 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Dwight, Now that we finally have a .380 from NAA that has a size advantage over comparable 9mm guns and a reasonable life span, I like the .380 too. Once I get my slide back from NAA and run some test rounds through it I can FINALLY start carrying it. Rolltide Message Board Member Username: Rolltide Post Number: 78 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 04:51 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Bill, I would agree that either your asumptions or the one shot stop data or both have unaccounted for variables. The many results of actual shootings in the one shot stop data take into account both physiological effects and psychological effects that are hard perceive much less quantify. Until something better comes along, I will go with real world results over theoretical speculation everytime. No offense. Like Shooter says, each to his own. Best Regards, Roll Tide Lynnkcircle Message Board Member Username: Lynnkcircle Post Number: 3 Registered: 08-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 09:31 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I've read through this thread and am going to add my own two cents. First of all, Krakenbound did get it right: most handguns are iffy propositions for one-shot stops. There are very good reasons why every army in the world supplies rifles rather than handguns to its soldiers, and it is not merely because rifles can be learned to be shot more accurately further by most inductees. Secondly, how a person will react to being shot with a handgun is so dependent upon such a wide variety of factors that it is just about impossible to predict in advance. I've read of one case in which a perp was actually shot in the heart by a cop with a .38 special, yet who lived long enough after that to still shoot and kill the cop. On the other hand, there are also cases of people being shot with a single .22lr and dropping dead on the spot. Then there is the case of a man shot in the head at close range with a .22 from an el cheapo RG revolver. The bullet failed to penetrate his skull, but instead skidded around between the skull and the skin and exited about 60% of the way around his head. He suffered only a bad headache. So, as someone licensed with a CHL, I'll carry a 4-inch barrelled .45 with 185 grain HPs in an IWB holster most of the time. But when the heat index breaks into the triple digits and the only bearable clothes are shorts and a single tee-shirt, the Black Widow with .22 WMR slips very nicely into a pocket. Perhaps I am wrong, but I still believe that if I'm ever confronted by a thug, a .22 magnum HP has a good chance of making him decide to go somewhere else. Regardless, it's a matter of luck and if my luck continues to hold, I'll never have to find out if I am right or wrong! (Oh and although I've read the information on lack of expansion in .22LR, does anyone know of any tests on 22WMR from a 2" barrel?) Good shooting, all. Lynn Circle Stainless Message Board Member Username: Stainless Post Number: 263 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 11:53 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Thought we run in to a forum glitch. It would not let me post and kept giving me admin errors ??? I guess it finaly cleared it head and went into overtime Stainless Message Board Member Username: Stainless Post Number: 264 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 11:57 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Lynnkcircle - I agree a 22 in your pocket is better then a 120mm cannon at home I try to carry at least a 380 when I can, if not them a 22mini mag. Also wow this makes 100 posts on this thread Thats a record. Io333 Message Board Member Username: Io333 Post Number: 48 Registered: 06-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 08:04 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Whats the one shot stop percentage of the 120mm? Kevin Message Board Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2003 Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 03:46 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Io333, "Whats the one shot stop percentage of the 120mm?" That depends on the load. Will you be using the anti-tank, high explosive, smoke, illumination, or practice round? For the first two, at normal gunfight ranges, the answer is 200%, your attacker AND yourself. The real question is, when is NAA going to get off the bench and make a Guardian or mini-revolver in 122mm caliber? A Guardian might make more sense due to the slimmer profile and the action absorbing some of the recoil, but a mini-revolver would cause Smith & Wesson to have a cow! "I know what you're thinking punk. You're wondering if I fired 5 shots, or only 4. Well seeing as how this is the NAA 122mm mini-revolver, the world's most powerful handgun and capable of not only blowing your head clean off, but of turning your Hum Vee into chaff... the question you have to ask yourself is: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well do ya, punk? Do you feel lucky?" Stainless Message Board Member Username: Stainless Post Number: 270 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 07:56 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Richard_s Message Board Member Username: Richard_s Post Number: 73 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 12:11 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Kevin: Welcome to the Message Board! With writing as good as that, I hope you stick around. RS Blademan Message Board Member Username: Blademan Post Number: 7 Registered: 08-2003 Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 04:51 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- sorry folks, new to this group. not sure where to post this message. I am in CA and can only purchase the mini revolver in 22 mag or 22 LR in the 1 1/8 inch barrel. So, please need advise as to what to buy. -with such a short barrel, is the 22 mag that much better. - if you recommend the 22lr or 22 mag, any ammo recommendations for self defense and what ammo do you recommend to practice with. many thanks for your technical assistance. Blademan Message Board Member Username: Blademan Post Number: 8 Registered: 08-2003 Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 04:53 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- sorry folks, new to this group. not sure where to post this message. I am in CA and can only purchase the mini revelover in 22 mag or 22 LR in the 1 1/8 inch barrel. So, please need advise as to what to buy 22lr or 22mag??? (don't want the one with both barrels). -with such a short barrel, is the 22 mag that much better. - if you recommend the 22lr or 22 mag, any ammo recommendations for self defense and what ammo do you recommend to practice with. many thanks for your technical assistance. Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 1222 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 06:41 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Bladesman: You should post a new thread, not copy the same question in 8 different threads. Steelhead Message Board Member Username: Steelhead Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 08:04 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I am seriously considering buying a .32 NAA pistol (I had my dealer order one), but am a bit concerned about getting ammunition. Is Cor-bon the only company that offers it? Does anyone know if .32 NAA will be offered by another ammunition manufacturer soon? Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 1558 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 02:52 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Steelhead: It is a new cartridge. Only recently has the firearm industry set cartridge specifications. Now other manufacturers will begin to consider the cartridge. Io333 Message Board Member Username: Io333 Post Number: 52 Registered: 06-2003 Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 07:32 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- It took a while, but I finally managed to form a mental picture what a 122mm mini-revolver would look like... with the exact same grip that it has now, and then I fell out of my chair. Steelhead Message Board Member Username: Steelhead Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 10:42 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Georgeh: thanks. I bought the gun last week and am awaiting my ammo delivery from my dealer and from NAA itself. Tomorrow/Wednesday should be the range test day. Also ordered a Kahr PM9, after firing one last week. Gun arrives tomorrow, so Christmas is early this year. Do you know anything about the Kahr PM9? thanks, craig Captb Message Board Member Username: Captb Post Number: 25 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 10:44 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Steelhead: Please keep us apprised of your experience with the Kahr PM9. I, too, am considering the purchase of a PM9. A Ron Graham holster would be required of course. Steelhead Message Board Member Username: Steelhead Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 02:20 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Will do, as the PM9 arrives tomorrow afternoon from a dealer in Nevada. An RG holster is quite spendy (over $400?). I should probably post this in a different thread, but I got to the range yesterday and fired 60 rounds through my brand new .32NAA. Impressed with the tight patterns, but I did have several Failures to Feed and Failures to Eject. For example, a round would get snagged by the rim as it was ejecting, or a round would get jammed while getting fed. Or both at the same time. DOES THIS go away as the pistol "breaks-in" or should I be concerned and send it back to the factory? Would appreciate all advice. thanks. Steelhead Message Board Member Username: Steelhead Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 12:00 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- UPDATE on Kahr PM9. I love it. Just put 200 rounds through it. Even firing Cor-bon +Ps (hot load), it holds its manners and accuracy. Little tighter patterns with Federal and Remington 115s, and 124 grain JHPs. FMJs were fine and tight. No problems with feeding or ejecting and the gun is brand new. I am really impressed. My .32NAA will be the backup to my full time carry PM9. I highly recommend this gun as it is very comfortable to shoot (even +Ps) and fits my had excellently. Shot the .32NAA with 50 more rounds today and had only one FTF problem. It's getting fewer as it breaks in. Still a handful to shoot compared to the PM9, but in a one-time defensive burst (what it's made for) you can't beat its size and accuracy. .32NAA on ankle, PM9 on inside the pant holster makes a wonderful combination. Steelhead Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 1563 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 05:09 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Steel: A couple of comments: What Ron Graham holster sells for $400? Second, I own one Kahr--a K40 Covert with a black dimond finish. I love its trigger pull. It is by far the best "out-of-the-box" I have ever owned. Captb Message Board Member Username: Captb Post Number: 26 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 07:34 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Thank you for the report. The RG holster I would consider is approximately $40.00 Steelhead Message Board Member Username: Steelhead Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 01:54 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- George and Captb: Apologies...when I was surfing the net I saw some Pocket holsters for $400 (it may be on the NAA site, but will have to check) and at the same time I looked at RG holsters and must have gotten the two confused. I don't know anything about RG holsters, but will look them up on the web. Please tell me why you recommend these? I've been using the $8.99 "Uncle Mikes" Inside-the-pants holsters for years. Cheap and they work nicely, but you have to replace them every 12 to 18 months b/c where I live (Idaho) it's very dry and they dry-rot. Seem to be made out of either Neoprene or something similar. I like them, because they work, are cheap and are very comfortable for an inside the pant holster. I have a pocket holster (another cheapie), but never use it largely because a PM9 or a .32NAA is kind of heavy to keep in the pocket. I'll use it in a polar fleece vest or pullover with external pockets, but am much faster with an inside-the-pant holster. Any of you ever tried an ankle holster? I like the idea (especially when sitting in a vehicle), but have never done much serious research into them. --steelhead Steelhead Message Board Member Username: Steelhead Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 02:34 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Just Checked: It was a Rosen Stingray Holster for $425 on the NAA site! Knew I wasn't going crazy -- forgetful maybe. Just checked the Ron Graham site -- you all are right. Very nice looking holsters. I may get the one that can convert from the front to back pocket (wallet pistol profile breaker). Any recommendations, before I order one? I've never used a pocket holster, so very open to your advice. Will check in a couple hours and see if there is any. thanks, Steelhead Dwight_frye Message Board Member Username: Dwight_frye Post Number: 398 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 06:21 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Steelhead i have 8 RG holsters and i'm the most picky person you will ever meet. Simple you can't beat his quality or price!! Hedley is also very good!!! Captb Message Board Member Username: Captb Post Number: 27 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 08:20 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Steelhead: Ask Georgeh about Ron Graham holsters. I think he has at least one of each. Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 1568 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 08:36 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Steelhead: I will retell my Ron Graham story. I've carried a concealed firearm for protection for about 22-24 years. A pocket pistol found its way into my pocket in the 1980's. My first was a Seecamp 25 auto. Historically, when money was tight, I bought holsters. Holsters were cheaper than guns. And I was attracted by various designs. There was for a very long time a dearth of choices with respect to pocket gun holsters. In fact, I signed up on this web site after I bought my G380, to find out about carry options. When I first signed on to this web site, Hedley was the King of the Hill. But a regular, Shooterjb, suggested that I try out Ron Graham. Until then I never heard of Ron. So I checked out his web site. I also checked out Hedley. Ron's prices were so reasonable, that my first order was for 5 holsters. The total price for all 5 and shipping was $200. When I finally got them, I flipped out. They were perfect. World class products. So since then, I've acquired 31 holsters from Ron for various guns. I also goated him into bring back a 22 bulk pouch--which he calls the "George." I own the original prototype and 6 of the production "George" pouches. Of the 38 products that I have, 4 are made with exotic leather. The belt holster that he made for my Black Widow out of "Reef Shark" is the finest holster that I have ever owned or even seen. As I type this, I have a 22 NAA Mini with a 1&5/8 inch barrel handing from my neck in a Ron Graham neck holster made from stingray. I am the unabashed, number one fan, and cheerleader of Ron Graham. I have nothing against any other holster maker. One of the reasons his prices are so reasonable is that he doesn't spend money on gun rag ads. So, I know word-of-mouth advertising is important. For that reason I never let an opportunity to plug his products pass. I'm a lawyer, by the way, so I have been professional trained to be obnoxious as hell if I need to be. There are some advantages to being an obnoxious, anal-retentive, professional asshole at times. There is one semi-regular on this board whose nose gets bent out of shape by my praise of Ron. But as I told him, he is free to praise or critique anyone he wants to. I would recommend Ron to anyone without any reservation. His products speak for themselves. As to ankle holsters, I love the concept, but I have not found one that I really liked. I still own 1, but the last time I used it was years ago. Steelhead Message Board Member Username: Steelhead Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 09:30 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Wow, with a recommendation like that, I'll pick up one, maybe two! Onto his site to order one. I assume I'll get it fairly quickly? Wonder if he'll make one for a PM9? thanks for all of the very useful information. Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 1571 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 07:01 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Steelhead: Speed depends on what you order. Ron is a one man shop. At any given time he has a 400-800 order backlog. He has tried to hire help, but he lives in rural Oregon, so the pool of available personnel is small. To speed up turn-around, he has come up with certain simple designs that he tries to stock pile. He also tries to make holsters in batches of one design at a time. So the wait for a traditional design is anywhere from 4 to 12 weeks. A few days ago, his shop was broken into. Some of his models are welded-up copies of the original that looks like the real thing. The welded up copies are usually provided by the manufacturer of the firearm. His NAA and Rohrbaugh models were taken. Rohrbaugh is welding-up a new model. But I don't think Ron said anything to NAA. NAA if you are reading this--weld-up and send Ron a set of holster makers models. Its in your financial interest to have as many holster makers out there make holsters for your products. Steelhead Message Board Member Username: Steelhead Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 07:41 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi George: I just ordered the "Maverick" from Ron last night. What town does he live in in Oregon, as I live in Western Idaho and spend lots of time in Oregon Steelhead and Salmon Fishing (hence the name). Would love to drop by his place and buy direct or see if I can help him out in any way. If he's in Eastern Oregon, that's a quick day-trip for me. The one-man shop producing high quality products is going the way of Taiwan and China and I want to do my share to keep at least one man in business producing products in my neighboring state. I do marketing and finance for a large financial services company and would be more than glad to give free professional advice. But at the end of the day, I would love to see Ron's shop and the goodies he's made only a few of each and the prototypes and just see his process. I will look up his mailing address on his sight. he took my order through paypal. Take care Georgeh. --steelhead Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 1574 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 12:21 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Steel: Speaking about Steelheads, one of the items on my wish list is a 8 wt fly rod for Steelhead and Salmon fishing. I have never fished for either. Last year I was in Kalkaska Michigan for their Trout Festival (it's the only city in Michigan that has a 12 foot statute of a Rainbow Trout in the middle of their "downtown"). While there, sucking on my beer in a stryofoam cup, I met a bunch of retired guys from northwest Washington state. They were educating me on Michigan Steelhead fishing. I didn't realize that there were few natural predators for Steelhead in Michigan so these guys like Michigan Steelhead fishing. It is one of the things I want to do before I die. But back to guns. Ron is in Gresham, which is east of Portland. So I assume it would be a fair hike from Idaho. The lawyer whose office is next to mine is a former FBI agent, he worked out of the Portland office for awhile during his FBI career, and he keeps telling me that I should spring loose a few dollars and go there on vacation. Every so often there is a big shindig there for people who worked out of the FBI Portland office. As far as I can tell, he never misses one. Steelhead Message Board Member Username: Steelhead Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 06:36 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- George: I highly recommend the Orvis T3 4 piece 9.5 tip flex 8 weight rod. If you don't plan on going annually, you can probably just borrow one. Yes, I looked up Ron on the web and saw that Gresham is just this side of Portland -- 6.5 hour drive at 75 mph from Boise. I'll get over there on some other business and ensure I stop by his store. Too long for a day trip, so I could combine it with a trip down to one of their western rivers (we're in the middle of prime steelhead season out here!). You should come out sometime. Beautiful country out here. Tons of BLM land, so if you don't feel like going into a shooting range and breathing spent gunpowder, you can just pull off the road and plink away into a hillside. Try that in Massachusetts or NY and you'll be doing 5 to 10. There's a ton to see around Portland and within a 5 hour driving radius in any direction. take care. Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 1580 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 09:10 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Steel: I love Orvis rods. I bought a 3 wt last year. Right now my rods are either full flex 6.0 or mid-flex in the 8-9 range. Some fishing buddies like tip flex for distance. But I know so little about Steelhead or Salmon fishing that I just a lost babe in the woods. Steelhead Message Board Member Username: Steelhead Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 04:50 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi George: I've fly fished since I was a kid and used all rods (Sage, Orvis, handmades) and have found the Orvis T3 to be the most consistent with the best warranty in the business. If you don't want to drop over $500 for a rod, I'd recommend the Orvis TLS line of rods. I bought a 4 wt for my son and at times like it better than my T3 4wt. The rivers that drain into the Great Lakes are not as wide as our western rivers, so your flex index isn't as big a deal (as long as you can cast a heavy fly). We use high mid-flex and some tip flex rods b/c of the wind tunnel effect we get in canyons around here. I like an 8wt 9.5 flex for wintertime and use a mid-flex 6wt (which bends like a limb) in the spring or early fall. The best reel I've found for the money is the CFO line, but they've stopped producing them for 7wts and up, and are supposed to have a replacement next year. The aluminum battenkills with the titanium finish are sweet and offered at a very reasonable $130 -- it just doens't have as powerful a drag system compared to the CFO. I had a surgery today to remove an 8" screw that was in my clavicle and shoulder after a motorcycle accident. Going to be in pain for 10 -14 days, just perfect for the holidays. Happy Holidays to you and your family Georgeh. --craig Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 1584 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 05:51 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Steel: I bought a TLS 2 piece 3 weight last year with an 8 mid-flex index, and one of the new machined Battenkill reels. I am planning on buying an extra spool this year for some sinking tip line. I love the reel. About 1.5 years ago, I got on a streamer kick. My favorite rod was a Orvis Silver Label 7.9 ft 5 wt full flex (5.0 flex index), but it sucks with streamers, so I bought a cheap 5 wt Clearwater with a higher mid-flex index number and love the fact that I can cast faster and farther. So this year I want to go with a TLS or T3 5 wt as a replacement for my Silver Label, and use the Silver Label and Clearwater as a spares. I love Orvis stuff, but I also like Sage. Last year I went to a fly fishing show and tried some new cheap rods, and was surprised by their quality. Generally, I tended to like more expensive rods but cheap reels. For trout, panfish, bass drag isn't really important. I can't remember the last time I even got into the backing. I'm 47, by the way, but my son is 6. So he started to ask about fly fishing and I bought one of Joan Wulff's "Fly-o" yarn rods, and I intend to teach my son how to cast. My wife is scared that if I do that, that my son will start to demand that we start crusing trout streams. I can't wait. By the way, you are right about the difference between Michigan and western rivers. I like to fish small streams, spring creeks, etc. just to avoid feeling like I'm on a freeway. As my son gets older, I want to start taking him on fishing trips, one out west, one out east, try bone fish in Fla, etc. By the way, Merry Christmas to you and your family. Steelhead Message Board Member Username: Steelhead Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 09:01 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- George: been having problems getting my mssgs to post here. I just sent you a private email, so email me back and I'll retype all the info I was trying to get to you. thanks, Steelhead Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 1585 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 04:57 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- H Steelhead: I got your PM. Steelhead Message Board Member Username: Steelhead Post Number: 41 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 11:31 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Georgeh: I've been traveling for awhile and busier than a one-armed paper hanger. Hope you're doing well and the Steelhead pics arrived. Somewhere in here, you once gave advice on how to best slip a Hogue grip onto the .32NAA. I've been looking, but can't find that thread. Can you point me in the right direction? I really don't want to have to use soap (that's how I got my grip onto my Winchester 1300 Defender and then just rinsed it and used a Blow Dryer to "Heat Shrink" it on). I hate to have to put water anywhere near the .32NAA. The 12 Gauge has a plastic type grip. I will keep looking for the thread. take care, steelhead Dwight_frye Message Board Member Username: Dwight_frye Post Number: 419 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 02:43 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Also does the slip help? Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 1637 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 03:21 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Hi Steelhead: Plain water or baby powder or silicone helps. Nicole Message Board Member Username: Nicole Post Number: 44 Registered: 08-2003 Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 06:12 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I had the guy at the range put mine on, he just manhandled it a little at a time while fondling my 32NAA Okie Message Board Member Username: Okie Post Number: 10 Registered: 01-2004 Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 11:38 am: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Well, I'm no ballistics expert, but I've dispatched my fair share of coyotes and stray critters with .22LR from up close and afar with single shots - and now I'm carrying a .22M w/ hollow points. Are people more resistant to lead than coyotes and stray dogs? I think not. I know people shoot back but maybe y'all worry too much to apply to most real-life scenarios? I mean, first, the assailant would NEED a gun. I realize that in the worst case I would want my shotgun or an Abrams tank - but I don't want to carry it for 10 miles down the hiking trail, so I am prepared to take my chances with having some REASONABLE protection. My County Sherriff (J.B. Hamby) was killed by a .22 at some range when I was a kid and I was told more people are killed by that caliber than any other; maybe because it's more prevalent? Anyway, I'll carry the Black Widow and feel tons safer with it than just pulling a hand with some meat on it out of my pocket. I bet it would do the trick or at least be a dang good deterrant. I know "I" wouldn't want to be shot with it. And I know it's "playing the knock down odds" but I say odds are - most people don't want to get shot - no matter what you're packing. Anyway, I think the Widow is The Mouse That Roared. I'll have the shotgun waiting in the tent. Theysayimnotme Message Board Member Username: Theysayimnotme Post Number: 133 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 02:34 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Steelhead: Use HOT water. I clean my black powder guns in the bathtub with the water as hot as I can get it. I run the water through the barrel until it comes out clean & then clean them as you normally would. The heat causes the gun to be almost instantly dry. Warning: Do NOT do this if She Who Must be Obeyed is anywhere nearby. Also applies to casting bullets on kitchen stove or reloading on dining room table. Georgeh Message Board Member Username: Georgeh Post Number: 1653 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 08:44 pm: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- My wife literally goes batshit when she sees me cleaning a pistol on the kitchen counter. So I understand.